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[blizzerd]

I know this subject has a lot of threads about it (this was mainly about the samesex marriages, since thats where i started) deep in the archive, some i have even posted myself in and some had me convinced that the way it is now is indeed the best course of action.

I think some of the most often said reasoning NOT to have this in the game at all would be the "its too much taboo to have in a (this?) game"
that combined with the "it does not matter a big deal, why change the code?"

personally, i find the fact that dwarf fortress is slowly turning into a cultural simulator a sign that these kind of things need to be implemented in some form

be it a sull solid percentage is gay or whatever, to an even duller "everyone is 50/50 bi"

or to a more exiting "its random for every dwarf/elf/we to fall in love with a same sex partner, and different cultures will accept or deny it, maybe even imprisoning the "offenders"
and maybe even a "some cultures/races tolerate it, some bathe in it, some burn you on the stakes for it" kind of deal (i would refrain from a "humans hate it, elves love it kind of deal, and prefer a toss of dice at world creation though)

what better way to make interesting historical events or fortress events then juliette and juliette falling in love, but it is forbidden, therefore being outcasted by the city, later on they both kill a dragon threatening the town and everything cool again for them...

a masterfully engraved image of juliette and juliette the dragon slayers slaying the dragon and regaining there towns approval, juliette and juliette are fornicating on the dragons corpse, the townspeople are rejoicing over the death of the dragon

i mean, dwarf fortress should have all sorts of these things, this is after all a game moving more and more into procedurally generated content to a degree that increases the immersion and storytelling capabilities

basically i feel limiting these things is probably the worst possible choice you can pick, we should be encouraging these things, not just same sex couples, but any sort of "possible double edge taboo behaviour" that really shape and distinguish societies and cultures from each other

i want to see dwarven empires taking over the elves necro-cannibalistic tendencies due to great famines in there past, and the other dwarven empires frowning upon these actions
i want to see men as traders, and other towns refusing to trade with a man, believing this is a womens job just because it has been the job of a women for decades on rows that it would seem weird to suddenly give it to a man
i want to see polygamy, due to a low male birthrate in history in a local region
i want to see drama and culture as its supposed to be, not this "lovely dovely" lets all be conformist crap some people would love to steer towards...

additionally, it would be a great way for dwarven fortress to define itself as an adult game, with diverse adult views on these topics without the game itself judging or steering moral choices or thought the player might have while playing

players dont want to be told what is good and what is evil in a game, personally i would be quite amused with generating a procedural world where (procedurally decided) any gay men are burned on the stake and any gay women is glamorised and idolised, these things are pure and raw culture and are a better way of predicting gays in games then any other game i know of has done so far... yea... i dare you to find a gay game character that was not put in just to be "the gay character", and is not an utter stereotype... games suck on mature topics... even porn... (im not talking about games that "are" porn i'm talking about games "about" porn or at least have a part of there storyline starring something related to porn.. just doesn't happen... unless uber stereotypes are used (playboy the mansion for example)

to be honest and to sum it up in a tldr: i want to see cultural drama procedurally generated, and i want to see it having a cause and an effect for certain civilisations and the more taboo, the better
if anyone is against implementing taboo, then they probably never dug up the shiny blue stuff, or actually read the elven history before... and they should... we already know dwarves can do depraved acts... whatever these are should be determined procedurally and be part of culture and not race properties

[sockless]

I'm probably going to come across as really crass and crude, but I don't mean offense to anyone.

I really do like the idea of culture and taboos, but it's implementing it that is the problem.

Are we going to go for the statistic model, where everyone has a n% chance of being homosexual? Or would we go for the genetics route (which would work, as you can have repressed sexuality)?

Also, if sexual intercourse is brought into the game, are we going to differentiate between people who just like to have gay sex and those who don't care about gender, where it's more a romance thing, pan-sexuality I think it's called.

There's also a point where you can cross the line, for example, some random civilisation may lock their women into a cellar and leave them there as baby machines for the rest of their lives. Some cultures may not mind incest, some may not mind if it's your cousin, but they do if it's your sibling, you'd have to have that in your model.

On the other hand, it would be interesting to see maternalistic societies, where females dominate and have most of the high up roles, while men are just haulers and grunts.

I can imagine, if all this was implemented, that the press might get hold of this game. There would probably be a huge uproar about this "gay incest simulator", it would be quite amusing really, since the media is so biased, as I have found out whenever they report on anything that I know something about.

Also, I think that it should be tied to religion as well as to civilisation.


Also, please improve your grammar, capitals at the start of sentences, capital I, full stops, etc.

[Jeoshua]

Gay Dwarves goes right up there in my wish list with Pooping.  Meaning it's realistic, but not necessary in the game.  It would be nice to have sterile creatures, and one could imagine any reason for them being non-child bearing that they wish... gay included.

Also being sterile would open the door to spaying and neutering pets, which is despirately needed to prevent catsplosions without the need for mass magma applications to the affected population.

[Nobbins]

I support this idea, but there should be some base settings to put in entity files. In fact, I think the entity morals should be a basis, but not static. That'd make it much more interesting and dramatic and crap.

[Jeoshua]

My big problem with this is that Ethics serve one big purpose in the game: Wars.  Would you really like to see reports in Legends mode that the Goblins are attacking you because you don't mind Gay people? I wouldn't, for one.

[NW_Kohaku]

My big problem with this is that Ethics serve one big purpose in the game: Wars.  Would you really like to see reports in Legends mode that the Goblins are attacking you because you don't mind Gay people? I wouldn't, for one.

Suddenly, I am reminded of Pat Robertson saying that 9/11 was caused because America wasn't harsh enough on homosexuality.  (Although perhaps that's not an avenue we should go down any further, since it would likely get politics mixed up in it...)

Anyway, right now, elves start wars because someone from that civilization told a lie.  *GASP!* 

Starting a war because someone is "trampling the civil rights of homosexuals"/"not stopping homosexuals from spreading their wicked lifestyle" is at least as good a reason to go to war as any of those other cultural ethic differences. 

Also, I look forward to the day when ethics aren't defined solely in the raws, and static throughout history, but where they are procedurally altered through gameplay, and where the ethics of different cultures change over time as they interact with other cultures. 

Maybe dwarves have a harsh no-gay stance, and elves and goblins are more liberal about it?  (I say goblins wouldn't mind because if you look at their ethics, everything but treason on there is either "ACCEPTABLE" or "PERSONAL_MATTER", meaning they don't really give a shit what you do, so long as it doesn't bother them, personally, or sell out their entire species.  I say elves wouldn't mind because... they're elves.) 

Maybe long-term interaction with other cultures would impact their ethical stance.

Peaceful trade would blend ethics closer together where they were different. 

Wars may actually push ethics further apart - if telling the truth all the time is an elven trait, you wouldn't want to be like those vile elven hippy scum, would you?  We can't punish liars, or we're as bad as those damn elves!

If you have ethics that change over time in civilizations due to events that shape it, the ethics system could become more interesting, especially if you have two different dwarven civilizations to choose from in the same world with radically different ethics.

Especially if you just make ethics more important in-game, in what jobs and actions you can or cant do in the course of playing the game, and we had a way of knowing what the ethics of the different civilizations we can embark from on the embark screen.

[Jeoshua]

It always comes back to variable ethics.

Which I am 100% on-board for.

It would let the people who love torturing and slavery and murder have what they want, and the game could respond more naturally to that by shifting your group's personal ethics.  And then other races and maybe even the Mountain home could respond accordingly, either shifting themselves, or attacking you for being too deviant from their own ethics.

I can imagine playing a Goblin Tower, making them be goodie goodies, and having the rest of the Goblin world attack you for treasonous behavior.  Fun times.

[blizzerd]

I'm probably going to come across as really crass and crude, but I don't mean offense to anyone.

I really do like the idea of culture and taboos, but it's implementing it that is the problem.

Are we going to go for the statistic model, where everyone has a n% chance of being homosexual? Or would we go for the genetics route (which would work, as you can have repressed sexuality)?

id be open for anything, although i dont think homosexuality in particular is genetic as you describe it (ive read some research about everyone having the "gay gene", and depending on certain balances in the womb it becomes more or less active or non-active, "having it" would greatly increase fertility and sex drive, thus being positive for natural selection, too active and you can be considered "gay"

also to put it in perspective for some of you people (non related really, but meh) 1 in 5 prefers same sex, 3 in 5 has no real or clear preference other then culturally induced and 1 in 5 prefers different gender according to some polls done in iceland (il try to find the source again if anyone is bothered)

personally i would prefer if a dwarf is gay or not to be tied to the stats already there, for example if he is a conservative dwarf (respects tradition) or not
civilisations acceptance could be tied to dwarves in charge, if the last 500 years the kings etc of the dwarven kingdom have all been very traditional in nature, gayness would not be allowed or something along those lines

Also, please improve your grammar, capitals at the start of sentences, capital I, full stops, etc.

the concept of capitals, full stops etc use is alien to me, i speak 4 languages and none of them use capitals and full stops the same way english does, ive made the compromise of trying to use them in short posts but not even bothering on longer since the chances are bigger i make a mistake that makes you guys all go "what the hell is he talking about"

your difficulty reading my op is probably more of the nature of me rambling too much

[NW_Kohaku]

also to put it in perspective for some of you people (non related really, but meh) 1 in 5 prefers same sex, 3 in 5 has no real or clear preference other then culturally induced and 1 in 5 prefers different gender according to some polls done in iceland (il try to find the source again if anyone is bothered)

There is a lot of conflicting research, and a problem is that in a way, it comes down to the methods you use to measure these things.

I remember reading an article in a magazine that described an experiment done to test if people were being honest about describing themselves as bisexual or homosexual or heterosexual, and hooked up electrodes to test which people were triggering subconscious arousal when the TV screen flashed naked men, and who was aroused when the TV screen flashed naked women. 

In that one, participants who said they were homosexuals performed exactly as you'd think - they reacted to their own gender with arousal.  The heterosexuals were also mostly reacting to the opposite gender.  The bisexuals by and large were aroused by their own gender, although a few were aroused by the opposite gender. 

It was listed as proof of "you're either gay, straight, or lying to yourself".

Then, you see plenty of studies like the one you list, which say completely opposite things.  The entire issue is also heavily politicized, which means that different factions have an interest in skewing what data gets represented, or outright manufacturing the conclusions in some cases, which muddies the waters even further.

[IT 000]

personally, i find the fact that dwarf fortress is slowly turning into a cultural simulator a sign that these kind of things need to be implemented in some form

Where are you getting this from? "Cultural Simulator"? I have a giant hole that drops invaders right through my dining room. I've flooded hell itself with magma. And I just created a bunch of +cat tallow roasts+ How is this any simulator of culture?

what better way to make interesting historical events or fortress events then juliette and juliette falling in love, but it is forbidden, therefore being outcasted by the city, later on they both kill a dragon threatening the town and everything cool again for them...

More interesting? Have you looked at the legends mode recently?

Female 1 marries Female 2
Female 1 was exiled for being lesbian
Female 1 was devoured by Dragon 1 in the year 1

The End.

Yes... exciting indeed. I'm at the end of my seat just reading those three lines.

additionally, it would be a great way for dwarven fortress to define itself as an adult game, with diverse adult views on these topics without the game itself judging or steering moral choices or thought the player might have while playing

Oh please no. DF does not have to be an 'adult game'. And I don't want to see a dwarf with a 'Having Sex' job.

---

Overall your entire argument falls apart at the question "Why?" (Don't worry, many arguments do) We don't have homosexuality now in the game, it isn't depriving the players of anything, likewise it isn't causing any huge riots over the lack of said homo/bisexuality. What does it add to the game? Nilch zilch, nada. This is a completely useless feature that has no point in being in the game other then to piss people off who play it. Whether you support homosexuality or not.

Furthermore it would destroy the fragile ecosystem of the boards. People will constantly be debating a moral topic that a majority of people still consider taboo. No matter which side of the table you are on, everyone will always leave angry.

The disadvantages of having it far outweigh the nonexistent advantages.

---

While I do support you on 'fluid ethics' where over time the views on slavery may change or a starving civ might turn to cannibalism. DF is not a political statement and should stay out of hot button ethics.

[sir_laser]

The implementation of homosexuality/other cultural controversy we are familiar with is probably a good idea that's way down on the list of things to do. Realistically, IF (a big if) it is ever going to get implemented, it'll probably come after DF version 2.00.00.

That being said, perhaps someone can, using the current static model for ethics, mod some of what is talked about in this thread in and see what happens.

[Jeoshua]

As far as sex goes, it would be a nice thing if married couples took a moment to be together from time to time.  They needn't have a "having sex" job, just be "on break" and in the same room together, alone.  No need to animate anything, they could just be spending some quality time together.  If this was the only way they could get pregnant, it would be a much better solution than the "spores" that they have now.

On same-sex marriages, I'd say absolutely no.  There is no reason to model this, at all.  It's only in this modern day and age in which we're even considering it an option.  And DF is not based on modern sensibilities, lending itself more towards fantasy and a medieval period.  And in those cultures, gays certainly existed, but their proclivities were simply not talked about.  People like Voltaire almost certainly enjoyed the company of men, but did anyone raise a stink about it? No.  They labeled him a strange fellow and moved on with their lives.

As far as modding any of this, sir_laser... no. We can't.  It's not possible to set a gender preference, and it certainly isn't possible to make new ethics.  There is no code in place for any of that.  Nowhere in the raws is it states what any of the ethics mean, nor what it means to break them. That's all hard coded.

[knaveofstaves]

Overall your entire argument falls apart at the question "Why?" (Don't worry, many arguments do) We don't have homosexuality now in the game, it isn't depriving the players of anything, likewise it isn't causing any huge riots over the lack of said homo/bisexuality.

Translation: OP, your thoughts don't carry the day, there's no consensus, we can't have it because people aren't rioting.

Furthermore it would destroy the fragile ecosystem of the boards. People will constantly be debating a moral topic that a majority of people still consider taboo. No matter which side of the table you are on, everyone will always leave angry.

Translation: OP, don't express your thoughts, don't try to build a consensus, your mere attempts will start a riot.

I was neutral on the implementation of sexual orientation before I read this bullying. Now I am vehemently for it. A squadron of gay male war polar bears guarding my fortress is the best. idea. ever. I'll call them the Sacred Band.

[Jeoshua]

While I may not agree with the reasoning that IT 000 has employed (riots? hardly), I still don't think that Homosexuality is necessary in the game.  Not because of it's taboo in modern or ancient times either.  Rather, it just doesn't seem necessary.  There are bigger fish to fry than whether Urist likes dudes or girls.

Also... gay what? war what? That's absolutely rediculous and you know it

[sir_laser]

It's only in this modern day and age in which we're even considering it an option.  And DF is not based on modern sensibilities, lending itself more towards fantasy and a medieval period.  And in those cultures, gays certainly existed, but their proclivities were simply not talked about.  People like Voltaire almost certainly enjoyed the company of men, but did anyone raise a stink about it? No.  They labeled him a strange fellow and moved on with their lives.

Jeoshua, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#History. Please read this.

As far as modding any of this, sir_laser... no. We can't.  It's not possible to set a gender preference, and it certainly isn't possible to make new ethics.  There is no code in place for any of that.  Nowhere in the raws is it states what any of the ethics mean, nor what it means to break them. That's all hard coded.

I did not know that; so you're saying we can't define a new ethics tag and set what each civilization's opinions toward that is? Or just not being able to define a new ethics tag?