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[Michael]

Once again, a discussion of dwarven ethics.

You are mixing up Dwarven ethics and Dwarfy ethics.  The former is outlined in raw/objects/entity_default.txt, and respectable.  The latter is how DF players actually behave, and is several leagues beyond psychopathy.

Of course, the only practical way Dwarven ethics is actually relevant to the game, is that certain corpses cannot be butchered without hacking the raws.

[Dave1004]

Jeoshua, I'm glad that you think that way. It's the same for me...

I don't see how dwarves are a "Cruel" race. They're not even close to cruel, they're practical. Needless savagery does nothing except make a dwarf a goblin. Dwarves are people of trade, of work. They forge great artifacts, level mountains, and merchant off their goods. The "Evil" Dwarves you're thinking of would be more like Duergar, or the dark dwarves. Look to the Forgotten Realms books for examples.

Dwarfs follow a rigid principle, full of honor and integrity. If something must do something cruel to ensure the survival of themselves or their friends, they won't hesitate. But they won't go up to "Goodly" folk and start slaughtering them. Dwarves prefer to do battle with evenly matched opponents, for such is a show of strength. Goblins mass up against the weak, they're thieves and murderers. Do you see Dwarves thieving, murdering? No, you see them living the lives Armok wished for them to. He is the All-Father of Dwarves, and he's not a "Cruel" god. He/Dwarves may be merciless is some cases, but they are not without compassion. They have families, friends, lovers. Goblins have none of that.

*sigh* I probably sound like an idiot. Simply put, Dwarves have honor. "Evil" races do not.

Ahrokian Charvosh! Strike the earth!

[Jeoshua]

Aye! There be a Dwarf I could chug mead with! TO ARMOK! *GLUGGLUG*

mmm notanelf *hic* yer a gublinlubber *hic*

[Michael]

Armok can't be a Dwarven god, although most of us players like to think of him as a Dwarfy god.  Actual dwarves probably quaver in fear at the name...

Simple proof -- the Dwarven ethics definition says:

Code: [Select]

[ETHIC:SLAVERY:UNTHINKABLE]

While the full title of the game is "Slaves to Armok, God of Blood II: Dwarf Fortress"

QED.

[Jeoshua]

Still doesn't make slavery a Dwarven thing.  Honestly, the name of the game has nothing at all to do with anything in the game.

I, for one, have never seen any God named "Armok" in Legends.  Never once.  It's not even a valid word in any language file that is in the game, and doesn't even fit the kind of words that the [UTTERANCES] tag generates.  Hell, there isn't even a Sphere FOR Blood for Armok to be the God OF!

The name is from an old game which bears almost no resemblance to Dwarf Fortress.

I don't know why Toady hasn't abolished "Slaves To Armok" from the title of this game, actually.  It just doesn't fit.

[NW_Kohaku]

Technically, this game is called "Slaves to Armok: God Of Blood: Chapter 2: Dwarf Fortress: Histories of X and Y", (where X and Y are synonyms for work and greed,) not just "Dwarf Fortress". 

Dwarf Fortress is just the name of the major mode, and Toady wants to eventually have Elven Retreat and Goblin Tower and such as their own modes.  I remember reading a Toady quote talking about how he wanted to go about calling the game something else, but that the name Dwarf Fortress had gotten stuck to the game, so he couldn't really change it so easily anymore.

[Avo]

Do I need to refer you to:

[ETHIC:SLAVERY:UNTHINKABLE]?

Jeoshua: This isnt a thread on slavery. Please keep your posts related

Do I need to refer you to the fact that Toady changed the code in mermaids so you couldn't do that anymore?

Needless to say, its still a part of dwarven history. And while we might not be doing it to mermaids anymore we continue to do it to everything else in sight. Dwarven ethics are based on how the players play, and quite frankly i find my cold unicorn sandwich delicious. Do you want to take that from us as well? The raws are just constraints. One of our favorite (and the funnest parts about DF) was turning elves into arrows.

You two seem to have misunderstood me. Im neither suggesting dwarves eating them or keeping them as slaves. Im suggesting the ability to sell them to elves. If the elves want to serve them in a stew that's their business. I personally feel it would add a bit more of character to the elven race. I understand that many players dont want to be forced to play there dwarves brutally but many(most?) of us choose to. How many times have you pitted a goblin axelord into a hole with a necrotizing syndrome beast just to get the cage back? Is this any more cruel?

This being against the elven ethics is a good point.
Needless to say, the general feeling seems to be very negative. Let the thread die please.

[Michael]

Still doesn't make slavery a Dwarven thing.  Honestly, the name of the game has nothing at all to do with anything in the game.

I wasn't arguing that slavery was dwarven.  Rather, I was arguing that since slavery is canonically anathema to dwarven ethics, and Armok claims slaves, then Armok isn't a god an upstanding dwarf would knowingly honor.

[sockless]

For the nth time!
Armok is not actually a god.
It's a reference to the first Slaves to Armok, where there was a variable "ARM_OK", and if we didn't have arms, then we couldn't do anything, so we were slaves to ARM_OK. Armok is not in game, never has been in game and never will be in game.

[IT 000]

There should be an easier way to dispose of prisoners and save the cages, but I don't believe that this is the best way. Elves don't come across as 'butcher sentient for food' but rather 'eat enemy as sign of disrespect'.

And think of the Goblins people! imagine the faces on those poor goblins as they have flowers put over their heads and are carted off accompanied by song and dances. Save your green skinned friends from the cruel claws of the elves! Apply Magma.

[Avo]

^ Thats how you post about not liking a thread.

Right now the elves dont feel like a "Drag the goblin into the tree and eat it" sort of race, but i think it would fit right in when it was added. Every race should be a mix of gray and not starch black and white.

The humans are human and have all of the flaws associated with us.
Dwarves: Lets face it, at some point in time you made a mace out of a puppy...
The Goblins: The goblins arnt actually all evil, haven't you seen them "Adopting" unattended children?

though you do bring up alot of good points. The primary goal is to have a useful way to get rid of prisoners rather then popping them or watching them rot to syndrome breaths.

[kylefiredemon]

There should be an easier way to dispose of prisoners and save the cages, but I don't believe that this is the best way. Elves don't come across as 'butcher sentient for food' but rather 'eat enemy as sign of disrespect'.

And think of the Goblins people! imagine the faces on those poor goblins as they have flowers put over their heads and are carted off accompanied by song and dances. Save your green skinned friends from the cruel claws of the elves! Apply Magma.

Maybe instead , a rehabilitation center can be opened to convert Goblins to the Dwarven way of thinking!

[Avo]

There should be an easier way to dispose of prisoners and save the cages, but I don't believe that this is the best way. Elves don't come across as 'butcher sentient for food' but rather 'eat enemy as sign of disrespect'.

And think of the Goblins people! imagine the faces on those poor goblins as they have flowers put over their heads and are carted off accompanied by song and dances. Save your green skinned friends from the cruel claws of the elves! Apply Magma.

Maybe instead , a rehabilitation center can be opened to convert Goblins to the Dwarven way of thinking!

A pit with magma?

[Jeoshua]

Avo, is it safe to assume that you now disagree with me as a matter of course, instead of having any specific point of contention?

The slavery argument was every bit valid, since you'd effectively be selling these prisoners as a commodity.  They would be goods, not sentient beings.  That's called human trafficking in our world.  In other words: Slavery.

[Avo]

No, i disagree with you because you make one bad argument then defend it to the death. Its very different, your simply selling the elves the freshest meat possible! Still kicking! We could have the player dump them off a cliff then sell them to the elves if you prefer?

The basis of this idea is elves eat sentient beings. Dwarfs have plenty of sentient beings that we cant do anything with! This gives a viable way to get rid of all of those annoying trolls. When you disagreed with the ideas you hijacked the thread and turned it into a dwarven ethics argument.