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Author Topic: Aqueduct design help?  (Read 5637 times)

Dragonfel

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Aqueduct design help?
« on: April 18, 2011, 03:19:11 pm »

Hey guys, looking for some brilliant dwarf engineers to help me rig up the aqueduct for my city. My city is located about -15 z levels below the surface and I want to redirect a brook down into my fort to supply a constant stream of running water that will act as water source, fishing, obsidian farming, and fill reservoirs that will be used for irrigation and the occasional waterfall when dwarves are unhappy. The flow will come down one side of my fort, fill ponds and ducts under the streets, then into a cistern below the city before it flows out of my city. The problem I'm having is trying to find a way to do this safely (not flooding my city) and also making it impossible for amphibious creatures like giant cave frogs to abuse and enter my city. I had the idea of directing the outflow into the cave system below my city at the edge of the map so it would simply flow right out.

The challenges are: With a redirected brook, I will have enough water to fill every square inside the water tubes to 7/7. Fortifications don't block creatures at 7/7. Iron bars can be destroyed by some creatures. If block either the inflow or outflow with floodgates then I will have to babysit the water levels, which I don't want.

I had the idea of using pressure plates to sense when the water in the outflow pipe is 6/7 and then shut down the outflow with a floodgate, but would a repeating pressure plate reopen the floodgate when it resets? Or maybe 2 floodgates, when one closes the other opens and makes the water travel around another way while the switch waits to reset?

Any ideas would be great. Thanks in advance!

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bobhayes

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Re: Aqueduct design help?
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2011, 03:33:38 pm »

Any ideas would be great. Thanks in advance!

Creatures won't go through a pump. So at the brook, pump the water up a Z-level and let it flow back down through an inaccessible (roofed-off) grate so that nothing can get into the water on the inlet side.

Once the water has flown through your city, rather than sending it down through the cave (and creating another path for naughty swimmers to get into your habitation zone), smooth and fortify a few edge tiles and let it flow out through there, bypassing the caverns altogether.

Neat idea, and if I ever manage to stop futzing around on the forums and actually START a .25 fort, I might steal it.
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D.L.

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Re: Aqueduct design help?
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2011, 03:37:17 pm »

I think the plan which I'm going to try to implement in my next fort is to drop a U-pipe from an infinite water source, with a floor grate in the bend back up toward my fort. Then equalize pressure using diagonals. That should allow infinite water supply while keeping out undesirables.
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Dragonfel

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Re: Aqueduct design help?
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2011, 03:54:13 pm »

Any ideas would be great. Thanks in advance!

Creatures won't go through a pump. So at the brook, pump the water up a Z-level and let it flow back down through an inaccessible (roofed-off) grate so that nothing can get into the water on the inlet side.

Once the water has flown through your city, rather than sending it down through the cave (and creating another path for naughty swimmers to get into your habitation zone), smooth and fortify a few edge tiles and let it flow out through there, bypassing the caverns altogether.

Neat idea, and if I ever manage to stop futzing around on the forums and actually START a .25 fort, I might steal it.

Phenomenal idea with fortifying the edge tile. That means my outflow will never be laden with monsters. Is there a way to set up some pumps at the river that will be powered by the river its self to send water into my intake pipe safely?
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ThirdSpartacus

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Re: Aqueduct design help?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2011, 07:04:41 pm »

You could have your cistern be multiple z-levels and have the top level siphon off to outflow into the caverns. This way there won't be any harmful consequences of floodgate mischief and you can safely toggle the floodgates manually without any needed time precision.

As for monsters entering your water, well, that's a risk we all have to take. I don't believe that there is any 100% safe-proof method of repelling ALL invaders short of constructing wall constructs.

wuphonsreach

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Re: Aqueduct design help?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2011, 09:31:34 pm »

As for monsters entering your water, well, that's a risk we all have to take. I don't believe that there is any 100% safe-proof method of repelling ALL invaders short of constructing wall constructs.

Well, you could design the system to be fail-safe.

Pull water out of the brook/river with an always on pump.  The 2-3 squares after the pump should be filled in with fortification tiles.  Then let the water down into your cistern or underground pipe system.  The fact that the fortification tiles are at 7/7 water after the entire system fills up won't matter, because the critter will have to destroy the pump first in order to get to the fortification tiles.

Destroying the pump means releasing the pent up water backwards over where the pump was and within a tick, suddenly the fortification tiles are no longer at 7/7.  Plus the critter might get pushed back a few tiles from the backwash.

Downside is that if you get frequent building destroyers, you're going to be rebuilding the pump frequently.
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Dragonfel

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Re: Aqueduct design help?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2011, 10:49:41 pm »

As for monsters entering your water, well, that's a risk we all have to take. I don't believe that there is any 100% safe-proof method of repelling ALL invaders short of constructing wall constructs.

Well, you could design the system to be fail-safe.

Pull water out of the brook/river with an always on pump.  The 2-3 squares after the pump should be filled in with fortification tiles.  Then let the water down into your cistern or underground pipe system.  The fact that the fortification tiles are at 7/7 water after the entire system fills up won't matter, because the critter will have to destroy the pump first in order to get to the fortification tiles.

Destroying the pump means releasing the pent up water backwards over where the pump was and within a tick, suddenly the fortification tiles are no longer at 7/7.  Plus the critter might get pushed back a few tiles from the backwash.

Downside is that if you get frequent building destroyers, you're going to be rebuilding the pump frequently.

That's a great idea. I could also wall up around the pumps and water wheel so only aquatic or flying building destroyers (relatively rare on the surface) can get at them.
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Guedez

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Re: Aqueduct design help?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2011, 11:21:05 pm »

I think the plan which I'm going to try to implement in my next fort is to drop a U-pipe from an infinite water source, with a floor grate in the bend back up toward my fort. Then equalize pressure using diagonals. That should allow infinite water supply while keeping out undesirables.

Water will only flow up if it completaly fills where it is. Unless this is what you mean:
side view

Code: [Select]
|w|          |w|
|w|          |w|
|w|__________|w|
|wwwwwWWWWwwwww|

and where there is the W, a top-down view would be:
(X = wall, W = water)
Code: [Select]
XXXXWXWXXX
WWWWXWWXXX
XXXXWXWXXX

This would fill whathever you want and only what you want eventualy, but will take ages...

As for monsters entering your water, well, that's a risk we all have to take. I don't believe that there is any 100% safe-proof method of repelling ALL invaders short of constructing wall constructs.

As far as i know, some building destroyers can enter fortifications, but nothing can attack from inside fortifications. So:

Code: [Select]
WWWWFGFWWWW

W= Water
F = Fortification
G = Grate

They will not be able to destroy the grates while inside the fortification. Have never tested before tough
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D.L.

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Re: Aqueduct design help?
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2011, 12:45:36 am »

What I mean is this:

Side view:
Code: [Select]
1|W|
2|W|            ________
3|W|            |WWwwwww
4|W|____________|W|-----
5|WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW|
6------------------

W = pressurized water, from infinite source (river, underground lake)
w = unpressurized water using a diagonal arrangement like what you described.

Somewhere in the right hand vertical pipe I would place a floor grate. Because creatures can't destroy objects on a Z-level above them, any creature that came through the left hand pipe from my water source would be stuck under the floor grate. No need for a pump.[/code]
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 02:49:23 am by D.L. »
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Reelyanoob

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Re: Aqueduct design help?
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2011, 02:34:32 am »

They will not be able to destroy the grates while inside the fortification. Have never tested before tough

I tried wall-grates and fortifications in a trap once, and they both allowed creatures to pass at 7/7 water. I don't know about floor grates. I think they're safe, even at 7/7 water.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 02:36:21 am by Reelyanoob »
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BulMaster

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Re: Aqueduct design help?
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2011, 07:38:15 am »

My current fort uses something like that. I build my floors in pairs, the first floor is the one where i build rooms and the 2nd floor is what I call my service floor. In the service floor I design where my water will go and I channel the first floor. I also use it for stockpiles underneath the workshops.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Bear in mind of water pressure, oh wait you are using a brook so nm.

Edit: fixed links
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 07:40:47 am by BulMaster »
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Nameless Archon

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Re: Aqueduct design help?
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2011, 12:01:19 pm »

If you want the flow to be passive, ergo no pumping, then you need a u-bend and a hatch or grate. I recommend the hatch, because the hatch can be used to block flow and prevent water from entering if you need to empty the system.

If you want it below ground, you need a pressure regulator (diagonal passage) on the level where the water will reside.

So:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Note that this system has ZERO complicated mechanics, repeaters, pressure plates, automation, and so forth. It is a 100% dwarf-operated passive supply system. This has advantages (no miscalculations) and drawbacks (requires a dwarf to use levers to change water supply settings). Further improvements in engineering are certainly possible, with planning, and could yield a more automated result, if that's desirable. For instance, one COULD rig a pressure plate to automatically open floodgates or the hatches in the main if supply drops in a particular area. This could allow you to create a system that automatically opens to allow flow, but closes when it's full.

Under normal circumstances, the passive system I've described will never flood, but requires you to either leave it open (safe if you added the grates/hatches as described) or manually handle opening/closing when reservoirs begin to drain due to use. It also assumes you understand that water repressurizes when it drops a level, that you understand the article on pressure in the wiki, and that you don't make an engineering mistake later that sabotages the works.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 12:17:41 pm by Nameless Archon »
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Mister Always

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Re: Aqueduct design help?
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2011, 12:17:33 pm »

Obligatory funny response: Buy some ducks. Put them in the aqueduct. Now you have an aqueduckt.

...wait, no, puns aren't funny. Darn.
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"""The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit." - W. Somerset Maugham" -Forumite" -Mister Always