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[psychologicalshock]

So I was thinking - kidnapped dwarves, instead of becoming goblin army regulars could occasionally be trained to become spies or terrorists. Like a kid gets kidnapped and then a few years later, as an adult, he comes back to your fortress under a fake identity and begins to cause trouble when you aren't looking - pulling levers that he shouldn't, collapsing buildings (bridges would be particularly devastating), poisoning the booze, rewiring the traps   and creating civil unrest in general. Perhaps he acts most when a goblin siege occurs where he  starts pulling every lever if you're just letting the goblins hang out outside.

[IT 000]

I support this with strings attached, I would prefer it if the kid would come back with his regular name. This should also be possible if you rescued the kid (planned for later versions)

Finally there should be some way to arbitrarily send the kid to jail or a way to detect such crimes. Perhaps if another dwarf is in a 3x3 vicinity they will get caught and charged.

[psychologicalshock]

This might give more meaning to the 60+ haulers because you would need a police force actively watching and patrolling the halls for trouble like this.

Also he should probably come back as a grown up with a legitimate profession so as to make detection difficult. Also I think he would use a fake name - I doubt goblins would send him back with his real name.

[IT 000]

Well, I suppose we are debating on two similar (but different things).

Let's assume that the dwarf is rescued from the goblins (which is planned). They should have their original name. Additionally if they are in the tower they should still have a chance of going rogue.

Now if a dwarf was sent back by the goblins, then they probably should have a name change. And should have a chance of not wanting to destroy the fortress (family and all). Likewise once they die, their previous names should be revealed in some way.

Adding on the idea, ambushes should attempt to nap adults, preferably having a different tag in the entity. This adds a certain mystery behind the subject once you rescue someone. Let's assume that this is in place, and three people are rescued from a goblin tower, once they are back, events start happening and the player begins to suspect sabotage. The player must make a decision, believe it is just his imagination, kill all three, or somehow quarantine them. Personally, I would like to hear stories in succession games where a batch of civilians was rescued and Urist McLegendaryMason was actually a goblin spy.

[psychologicalshock]

Great ideas, I like the idea that you always have to distrust people you rescue or new migrants . That would add a whole new layer of gameplay.

[Jeoshua]

The only problem I have with this idea is that people already get a little homicidy with immigrants when they are Legendary Cheesemakers.  This gives them more reason to magma them to death.

I'm beginning to wonder what kind of community this game really attracts, when this is what I think of for a perfectly valid idea.

[DrKillPatient]

Quite interesting... Attack by unknown foes, especially in your own population, would add a lot more challenge to management I think-- most of the threat comes from outside the fort right now, so long as your dwarves are fairly happy. I wonder if we need some restrictions on their skills to make them come as seemingly useful dwarves, though. They'd never make it past my defenses in the first place if they were a high master milker or something.

Maybe in detecting them, you could observe spies' relations with other dwarves. Since they came from goblin customs, maybe regular dwarves would find them to be unlikable or suspicious for their somewhat more barbaric nature (assuming that they might let something slip occasionally). That, of course, could lead to a fortress-wide paranoia spiral, where everyone ends up killing each other because no one knows who the spy really is.

[IT 000]

The only problem I have with this idea is that people already get a little homicidy with immigrants when they are Legendary Cheesemakers.  This gives them more reason to magma them to death.

I'm beginning to wonder what kind of community this game really attracts, when this is what I think of for a perfectly valid idea.

Granted, but that goes into the whole 'Kill them or Take a chance' choice, if you want to kill them, it's totally up to you. If your Legendary Blacksmith is rescued, I would take the chance to keep the dwarf.

[kylefiredemon]

Quite interesting... Attack by unknown foes, especially in your own population, would add a lot more challenge to management I think-- most of the threat comes from outside the fort right now, so long as your dwarves are fairly happy. I wonder if we need some restrictions on their skills to make them come as seemingly useful dwarves, though. They'd never make it past my defenses in the first place if they were a high master milker or something.

Maybe in detecting them, you could observe spies' relations with other dwarves. Since they came from goblin customs, maybe regular dwarves would find them to be unlikable or suspicious for their somewhat more barbaric nature (assuming that they might let something slip occasionally). That, of course, could lead to a fortress-wide paranoia spiral, where everyone ends up killing each other because no one knows who the spy really is.

We could also have checkpoint centers that said dwarves can't get in without ID papers.

[Deepblade]

This idea makes me think of the movie "The Thing". Perhaps we could also have forgotten beasts that eat people & assume their identity?

[Mckee]

The idea of them making more grudges than usual is a very good one I believe. Perhaps one very simple way to make them more useful and so more likely to gain entrance is to send them back with decent or better combat skills, along with the usual random assortment of other stuff. This represents the fact that they are trained by the goblins and means players are more likely to accept them. It has the added benefit of them possibly being drafted, which is where you would want a well placed infiltrator.

Depending on the dwarves nature, they could either covertly ruin things like food and water (perhaps by taking items and dumping them or just making food rot. Possibly even poisons), more overtly, open levers and unlock doors during sieges, or if in proximity to the goblins, especially if part of military, they could become outright hostile and attack allies.

[FallingWhale]

Goblins think of them as goblins, they think of themselves as goblins; why would they be anything but goblins?

[Jeoshua]

Well, DF already has an answer for that:

They would be Goblins.  Same as any creature which joins up with any other Entity.  Hell, DOGS are considered to be Dwarves in entity, if they're tamed by the Dwarves.

There are two different kinds of prisoner tho, if you look closely enough at the Legends XML dump.  There are those Dwarves who live in a Dark Tower.... those are Goblins.  And there are Dwarven Prisoners who live in a Dark Tower... those are still Dwarves.

[psychologicalshock]

I am thinking it might also be an interesting mechanic for offensive play in the future - to use goblin POWs as retrained agents. I am thinking the way one would go about that is keeping their family hostage perhaps after a successful raid or capturing goblin kids to train yourself. Would be like a hitman-like subgame of its own where you tell your trouble makers what to screw up in an enemy fortress while trying to keep them undetected.

[Blade Master Model 42]

I am thinking it might also be an interesting mechanic for offensive play in the future - to use goblin POWs as retrained agents. I am thinking the way one would go about that is keeping their family hostage perhaps after a successful raid or capturing goblin kids to train yourself. Would be like a hitman-like subgame of its own where you tell your trouble makers what to screw up in an enemy fortress while trying to keep them undetected.

Fantastic, a suggested use for goblin prisoners other than slavery/target practice.