Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[major_sephiroth]

I've been busy, asses. THE WALL OF TEXT TO END ALL WALLS OF TEXT INBOUND.

He cast a vote for major_sephiroth, thinking I would support him in this act

I still think you will, because I still think he's scum.  You'll notice I have reasoning, indeed, an actual case backing my vote.
Summarise or link it for me, if you would.

Here you go:

So, major_sephiroth,

More words does not mean more information. That is a jarbled mess, not a response.
...
You however, have only defended yourself and made half-baked arguements based in fantasyland. Make some cohesive arguements, not blobs of hopeless accusation.

It is indeed a response, and a somewhat less jarbled mess than his previous posts and the closest thing to a cohesive argument he's  produced yet.  He's still dropping WiFoM like candy, but, as I said, it looks more like ignorance than scumtells to me. 

In light of this, I've taken a closer look at your responses:

Fourthly, my hammer-opening vote is more justified now. Read on.
...
So, you're either scum yourself, trying to convince us otherwise by saying you would have bandwagoned me, just scum, town misleading the rest of the town, or stupid town.
None of these options lead you to being a helpful townie.

My vote stays.

This is all the justification you provide for that vote.  I think he's fallen in the stupid town camp, so now I'm looking at what passes for a bandwagon in Vengeful, and as the second vote, and the one that's been attacking relatively weakly, you're the more suspicious of the two.

I'm going to be very  busy for the next two days.  I'll be back Sunday (possibly) or Monday (definitely).

So you're after me because my attack on Max is weak? Yeah. It is. It's also the best I've got. You have to admit, he isn't exactly being useful for the town - he's just useful enough to claim innocence. Since a hammer-opening vote needs more than that, Unvote. Bolded so it's easy to see.

major_sephiroth, two things:

1) You said you didn't like my post, and you'd have more later. It's later. Where's your post? I'm not going to argue with you about Max swimming in an ocean of WIFOM, but I do argue with your conclusions and would really like to see your reaction post.
2) This isn't accusatory, just wanted to point out you accidentally said Max White was 'stupid town' in your last post. While I'd agree with that statement (it's the bit right after you first quote Max White) I presume you mean stupid scum, as you refer to him as such later on.

Max White: Please please please don't wantonly hammer major_sephiroth just because you can. I think we still can have plenty more discussion.

I've been BUSY.

My initial two suspects are major_sephiroth and supercharazad. I'm currently more suspicious of major_sephiroth. You were intent on lynching a lurker which is incredibly dangerous in Vengeful, you were the first to put a second vote on someone, and when pressed on not giving substantial backing for your vote, you cast aspersions on other players. You also have been attacking Max White whom I believe to be an innocent and naive townie. I think you are pressing Taricus and Max because their lurking makes them easy targets for a lynch that would push through a scum victory. Why threaten lurkers with lynching in Vengeful, where one bad lynch can end the game? I understand your frustration with lurking, as nothing to analyze gives absolutely no tells to work with, but frustration does not mean cause for lynching. What convinces you that Max White is scum trying to manipulate people with (no offense Max White) rather terrible and obviously beginner's WIFOM?

I wasn't JUST lynching him because he lurked, I voted him because he's an unhelpful git. While I pushed them for lurking, I tried not to open them to hammers - until Max starting being useless. I have retracted my vote though - look at my response to Okami.
As for point 2, I'm saying he's either stupid town or scum. I'm not certain, but I'm mostly sure.

And about the last bit - if you don't want me hammered, why leave me open to hammers?

Maybe I should vote off major for inactivity. It's always nice to follow through with the thread theme. 

Yeah screw you. I've been doing things.

Major has dropped out of the game, it seems.

I'm very curious to see what he has to say about all this when he gets back.

I'm still around.

... Wow, he's kinda dropped off the forums all together. Still, he was on as recently as Friday.

Yeah, everytime I'll actually check the forums I'll post here, so use the "last active" thing to see if I'm actually lurking. Or anybody or that matter.

Rule one of Mafia: Mafia is a game of information. Removing any source of information is anti-town. Thus, lurking is anti-town, refusing to answer questions is anti-town, self-hammering is anti-town (it ends the day, preventing people from gathering more information), self-voting is anti-town (it pushes you closer to lynch and reduces the effort scum needs to bump you off), giving up is anti-town (by not fighting back, you willingly let town lynch you without forcing scum to act),

The biggest problem with this is that scum are also a source of information, but it is our goal to remove them. Surly the best source for finding other scum would be the person who knows who they all are, but on that logic we would never vote a scum out and nobody would ever win.

Or is that why I am currently being discouraged to vote for major_sephiroth?

No.


Scum are not a source of information, they are a target to be destroyed.

Sure, you COULD let scum roam around to try to find their scumbuddy - or you could LYNCH them and HELP THE TOWN. Damn it Max, you look SO SCUMMY.

So, the people who have no way to be sure what is going on are a priceless source of truth, while the people that can see the game in context of who is and is not scum are worth squat. Seems a little counter intuitive.
Even if the scum are working against you, they have a quota to meet, and have to act on that one day, else they will fail, so you can trust a scum to one day act like scum, but you can never trust a townie, because they could very well be wrong about their accusations. The only tricky bit is figuring out who to trust... Then voting out their scummy ass.

Damn you're useless. You're the Org of Beginner's games. (No offense Org.)
This thinky crap is useless for us. It's not evidence, its all hypothetical GARBAGE. If WIFOM was water, we would've drowned by now because of mostly you.

You know lordnincompoop, and by this I mean no offence, because I think your a pretty cool guy, and I think it is a shame that you are not playing, because I would have liked to see how you go about things, but can you shut the hell up? No, not because I feel personally offended. Trust me, it will take a lot more then telling me I am playing a game wrong to get under my skin, but let us assume by some strange twist of nature I got lucky and managed to pick out the two scum, there is a 25% chance of guessing right anyway, and I voice my wild accusations. Now somebody reads my opinion, and is indifferent, but then reads that I am "being an idiot, and a jackass" and because of that I must be wrong, despite the logical falsity. They then go on to lose the game for the townies because you tainted their opinion. The inverse could also be true, that I am dead wrong, and because you convinced somebody that I must be wrong, the townies win despite having an inferior team.
I mean if your going to be an IC, then sure, give hints and tips and what not, but do you really see that post as anything constructive?

Then again, I could be wrong, and such advice is common towards newer players, and should that be the case I  humbly apologise, but surly  such a post could sway gameplay in ways not exactly balanced?
It might also help if we keep things in context, and add the second half of that quote. Just saying.

Yeah it's out of order and all that crap but I wanted to respond to this too.
He's our IC. He's here to help. You (and the rest of us) are new to mafia, and we all SUCK AT IT. LNCP is here to make sure that we suck less, so telling him to shut up - you're just crazy stupid. Also - note that while I think you're a stupid and unhelpful moron, I still wait for evidence before I vote you. (And Unvoted earlier in this post for the lack thereof.) We suck at maia, but we're not dumb enough to vote on opinions.





Here's my post. It's garbled and messy, but my responses are in there. If I missed something, tell me and I'll remedy that situation.
Once more - I get busy sometimes - but when I check the forums, I'll check here. I shouldn't be absent for more than 3 days at most in future. I'll try to be more active so my posts aren't giant walls.

[Max White]

I would say that major_sephiroth could very well be unvoting me with the hope that he will find a friend with one of the two people who could vote him off right now, but then I would get accused of WIFOM, so no way I would go so far as to make such a claim. Anyway, if he wanted me not to hammer him, not calling me useless might be a nice start, as casting the final vote on a scum would be a great way to start being useful, right?

So, Okami, think, and especially super, what do you guys think? I mean I still think he is a townie, to some degree at least, but that is just because I don't trust Okami. Anyway

I wasn't JUST lynching him because he lurked, I voted him because he's an unhelpful git.

So, not being active, and not being useful in the first few pages (When you first voted for me) is enough to pile two votes onto somebody? Does that mean so much lurking that people feel you have just dropped out, and not really contributing much the entire game, is reason to put three votes on somebody?

[major_sephiroth]

Responses in green.

I would say that major_sephiroth could very well be unvoting me with the hope that he will find a friend with one of the two people who could vote him off right now, but then I would get accused of WIFOM, so no way I would go so far as to make such a claim.
By posting this, YOU JUST DID make that claim. You're trying to WIFOM us to death. Try to be more subtle, scum.
Anyway, if he wanted me not to hammer him, not calling me useless might be a nice start, as casting the final vote on a scum would be a great way to start being useful, right?
I'm not here to be nice. I'm here to lynch scum.

So, Okami, think, and especially super, what do you guys think? I mean I still think he is a townie, to some degree at least, but that is just because I don't trust Okami. Anyway
So you're threatening to hammer me and then you say you think I'm town? Make up your mind.

I wasn't JUST lynching him because he lurked, I voted him because he's an unhelpful git.

So, not being active, and not being useful in the first few pages (When you first voted for me) is enough to pile two votes onto somebody?
I put ONE vote. I only get ONE vote. Someone following me is not my fault. I don't control people, mindgames are for the pros. I get ONE vote.
Does that mean so much lurking that people feel you have just dropped out, and not really contributing much the entire game, is reason to put three votes on somebody?
I've been contributing to discussion and making arguements - you've been in fantasyland where everything is perfect just for you. I wasn't lurking, I was BUSY. Mostly unable to visit the forums busy. That's not lurking - lurking is choosing not to post, while circumstances kept me from posting.

On a related point, I voted you to TRY to get you to be useful to begin with. You weren't.

[Max White]

Well I don't think you are scum, but you are close.
Right now it is between you and Okami, so I guess who ever helps vote out super is looking more innocent. I mean it is like you said, scum should be hunted to extinction, and Okami has already said he feels sure about both super and yourself, a position that think shares. I'm not so sure, but I feel very good about super, so were we to get rid of him, I would be able to rest easy about day 2.

If day 2 comes about and you held no part in voting out super, it doesn't look good for you.

[Think0028]

major_sephiroth, two things:

1) You said you didn't like my post, and you'd have more later. It's later. Where's your post? I'm not going to argue with you about Max swimming in an ocean of WIFOM, but I do argue with your conclusions and would really like to see your reaction post.
2) This isn't accusatory, just wanted to point out you accidentally said Max White was 'stupid town' in your last post. While I'd agree with that statement (it's the bit right after you first quote Max White) I presume you mean stupid scum, as you refer to him as such later on.

Max White: Please please please don't wantonly hammer major_sephiroth just because you can. I think we still can have plenty more discussion.

I've been BUSY.
I wasn't JUST lynching him because he lurked, I voted him because he's an unhelpful git. While I pushed them for lurking, I tried not to open them to hammers - until Max starting being useless. I have retracted my vote though - look at my response to Okami.
As for point 2, I'm saying he's either stupid town or scum. I'm not certain, but I'm mostly sure.

And about the last bit - if you don't want me hammered, why leave me open to hammers?

First I'll answer your last question: I left you open to hammers because I believed from your responses that you were scum and wanted to put pressure on you, but I didn't want Max in particular to hammer you because he had earlier mentioned that he thought he should hammer someone with two votes on them. I wanted to make sure he was clear of that particular misapprehension.

Now, about your responses to my arguments:
You said you were suspicious of Max for lurking, and then after the weekend was over, you put him at L-1 with no other grounds than just him lurking, as he hadn't posted squat for you to analyze between those two posts. That said, considering Max's behavior then and even now, I find it hard pressed to judge you for voting him then, let alone lynch you. Unvote. Who are your scumpicks now?

Super: You have arguments against Max, that's pretty obvious. Who is your second scumpick? Why so incessantly certain that Max is scum? What is your opinion on Taricus/me? You were pretty fierce against me when I was Taricus. I know you can't exactly question me on my/his behavior then, but do you have any other questions you'd like to ask me?
Okami: Now that major has posted, are you still convinced he's scum?
Max: Do you have anything you can base a case on besides that?

[IronyOwl]

Votecount
Supercharazad - 2 - Max White, Think0028
Max White - 1 - Supercharazad
Think0028 - 0
Okami No Rei - 0
major_sephiroth - 1 - Okami No Rei

[Supercharazad]

Super: You have arguments against Max, that's pretty obvious. Who is your second scumpick? Why so incessantly certain that Max is scum? What is your opinion on Taricus/me? You were pretty fierce against me when I was Taricus. I know you can't exactly question me on my/his behavior then, but do you have any other questions you'd like to ask me?

My second scumpick is major_sephiroth.
For one thing, he didn't really do much for the past while, but he gave reasons for that. Also, he's buddying me, a LOT. I think he's trying to get me lynched...

[Supercharazad]

Wait. What?

Okay, I didn't notice that, forget it and replace it with:

My second scumpick is major_sephiroth.
For one thing, he didn't really do much for the past while, but he gave reasons for that. Also, he's buddying me, a LOT. I think he's trying to make me look like a godfather.

[Think0028]

Major: So you first say you think Max's either town or scum, and you promptly revert to calling him scum. You also say that Super followed you, which is pretty hard when he voted before you. You even said then that you were putting Max at L-1. It's one thing if you're the first vote like Super, it's another when you're lying about putting someone about L-1. Answer the question directly.

[Max White]

Max: Do you have anything you can base a case on besides that?

Well let's address the latest post, before we delve into the past on this one.

Firstly.

My second scumpick is major_sephiroth.
For one thing, he didn't really do much for the past while, but he gave reasons for that. Also, he's buddying me, a LOT. I think he's trying to get me lynched...

This looks like he is trying to get on the band wagon pretty darn hard (Also, could be a sign of distancing, but that is once again WIFOM, and I am meant to be more subtle, right?) here. It is also sort of a strange choice for a second, because if both major_sephiroth and I were scum, then one scum has been keeping another in the high risk zone the entire game for little reason at all. It makes little sense beyond super trying hard to bandwagon, and the scumhutning guide does say

Bandwagoning: Voting for whoever has the most votes or seems most likely to be lynched, despite having poor/no reasons or not wanting them lynched previously. It implies that you don't care who gets lynched, you just want someone gone, which is generally the case for scum

Secondly.
For a while there he was voting for me, then stopped, claiming that nothing was getting done. Within about a page, after I didn't unvote him, he voted me again, for the sole reason that he didn't like that I was voting for him.

Thirdly.
He has been using 'inactive' as a reason to vote for people the entire game, but would you keep two votes on somebody due to inactivity? It's that sort of reckless act that shows he doesn't care who he lynches, as long as he lynches and has some cover story.

[Okami No Rei]

Unvote while I process everything with major back.  Post to come.

[Okami No Rei]

I'm saying he's either stupid town or scum. I'm not certain, but I'm mostly sure.

Mostly sure of what?  Is he stupid town or stupid scum?

[major_sephiroth]

First I'll answer your last question: I left you open to hammers because I believed from your responses that you were scum and wanted to put pressure on you, but I didn't want Max in particular to hammer you because he had earlier mentioned that he thought he should hammer someone with two votes on them. I wanted to make sure he was clear of that particular misapprehension.

Now, about your responses to my arguments:
You said you were suspicious of Max for lurking, and then after the weekend was over, you put him at L-1 with no other grounds than just him lurking, as he hadn't posted squat for you to analyze between those two posts. That said, considering Max's behavior then and even now, I find it hard pressed to judge you for voting him then, let alone lynch you. Unvote. Who are your scumpicks now?

Well, to clarify, I'm about 80% sure Max is scum - if he's not, he's stupid town. This line is for Okami too.
I've seen some of super's previous games and he likes to just press people. I'm not sure whether he's town or not.
Okami seems to be generously scumhunting - mostly me, but still - so I think he's Town.
That leaves you. Tari was too brief and active lurking, so I think he's scum. You took his role - and you're scumhunting and all, but I'm not certain you're town either.

Major: So you first say you think Max's either town or scum, and you promptly revert to calling him scum. You also say that Super followed you, which is pretty hard when he voted before you. You even said then that you were putting Max at L-1. It's one thing if you're the first vote like Super, it's another when you're lying about putting someone about L-1. Answer the question directly.

I didn't actually look back when I posted that - I thought I voted first. He was still inactive and useless. He wasn't hammered either. That's suspicious in itself.

[Think0028]

It's not suspicious in my book: I can think of multiple reasons why town wouldn't hammer him. For example, if town believed he wasn't scum. And considering that there are two people not voting him, you can't have all three of us as scum. Him not being hammered is not suspicious. You pointing it out as such is.

However, I grant the point about Taricus's active lurking, and I'm trying my best to undo the damage he did to town through his inactivity. Only so much you can do when you replace.

[Supercharazad]

This looks like he is trying to get on the band wagon pretty darn hard (Also, could be a sign of distancing, but that is once again WIFOM, and I am meant to be more subtle, right?) here. It is also sort of a strange choice for a second, because if both major_sephiroth and I were scum, then one scum has been keeping another in the high risk zone the entire game for little reason at all. It makes little sense beyond super trying hard to bandwagon, and the scumhutning guide does say

Bandwagoning: Voting for whoever has the most votes or seems most likely to be lynched, despite having poor/no reasons or not wanting them lynched previously. It implies that you don't care who gets lynched, you just want someone gone, which is generally the case for scum

Secondly.
For a while there he was voting for me, then stopped, claiming that nothing was getting done. Within about a page, after I didn't unvote him, he voted me again, for the sole reason that he didn't like that I was voting for him.

Thirdly.
He has been using 'inactive' as a reason to vote for people the entire game, but would you keep two votes on somebody due to inactivity? It's that sort of reckless act that shows he doesn't care who he lynches, as long as he lynches and has some cover story.

Let's see:

1: Bullshit. I did not vote him, I simply stated he was my second choice. That is not bandwagoning.

2: Wrong. I voted you again because you started acting scummier than before. I've already stated that.

3: Wrong. I'm not voting you for inactivity currently, and I'm obviously not voting anyone else at the same time.


You're really looking for my lynch here, with really terrible reasons.
Why is that?