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[Supercharazad]

No, being the easier of two targets does not make you scum, but I only have one vote, so for the first two reasons, you are it! As for this OMGUS, well maybe, but it is not my only reason to vote for you, and if I am going to get rid of somebody, it might as well also be the one trying to attack me. It would be OMGUS if the fact that you were voting for me was my only reason. This is not a defensive vote, but an offensive one, the fact that it might get one guy off my back is a deal sweetener.

Right. So basically, you're trying to figure out what the scum is thinking.

Don't try, it doesn't work. Ever.
It just leads to WIFOM.



Also, a reason for your voting me is because I'm voting you. That's still OMGUS.

[Max White]

There is a differance between "Oh look, he did X, therefore he is scum! But wait, if he were scum then he would not do X just to prove he wasn't scum! But what if he knew I would think that, so he did X anyway!" and "If I say Y and he does X, he is likely to be scum, otherwise he is either a townie, a scum who noticed what I was going for, or a scum who didn't notice the position I game to them". The first is just speculation and what you call Wine in Front me Me, and is likely to get you killed because he poisoned both goblets, good movie though! The second is calculation, and Okami acted just as I predicted a scum would. I had strict conditions for what would make for a scum move, and he followed through with them, and that is incriminating to you because the set up only works if you are scum. So, am I leading myself in circles saying 'But what if he knew I would think that?!?", no, I am not.

Although insisting that the guy voting for you is just making vague guesses is a great way for a scum to try and avoid getting lynched.

[Supercharazad]

There is a differance between "Oh look, he did X, therefore he is scum! But wait, if he were scum then he would not do X just to prove he wasn't scum! But what if he knew I would think that, so he did X anyway!" and "If I say Y and he does X, he is likely to be scum, otherwise he is either a townie, a scum who noticed what I was going for, or a scum who didn't notice the position I game to them". The first is just speculation and what you call Wine in Front me Me, and is likely to get you killed because he poisoned both goblets, good movie though! The second is calculation, and Okami acted just as I predicted a scum would. I had strict conditions for what would make for a scum move, and he followed through with them, and that is incriminating to you because the set up only works if you are scum. So, am I leading myself in circles saying 'But what if he knew I would think that?!?", no, I am not.

Although insisting that the guy voting for you is just making vague guesses is a great way for a scum to try and avoid getting lynched.

STOP TRYING TO GUESS WHAT THE SCUM ARE THINKING.
SERIOUSLY.

So, yeah, give me some reasons that arn't bullshit.

[Max White]

In theory, anything anybody takes as evidence of anything is trying to guess what somebody is thinking, as anybody could lie about anything, so on that level you have to guess they are telling the truth or not. But you can put forward a test, without worrying about what somebody is thinking, and give it win and loose conditions. That way there is no 'What if he is thinking this!' to it, it is just he takes the bait, or he does not.

If you haven't noticed, this entire game is a mind game. Telling me to stop playing mind games is like telling me to hammer myself, pointless.

[Max White]

Also, just out of interest, when a player is voted off, do we need to revote our votes, or do they carry over to the new day?

[Think0028]

Also, just out of interest, when a player is voted off, do we need to revote our votes, or do they carry over to the new day?

You have to vote anew the next day, because there's an awful lot of new information that comes with roleflips.

[lordnincompoop]

There is a differance between "Oh look, he did X, therefore he is scum! But wait, if he were scum then he would not do X just to prove he wasn't scum! But what if he knew I would think that, so he did X anyway!" and "If I say Y and he does X, he is likely to be scum, otherwise he is either a townie, a scum who noticed what I was going for, or a scum who didn't notice the position I game to them". The first is just speculation and what you call Wine in Front me Me, and is likely to get you killed because he poisoned both goblets, good movie though! The second is calculation, and Okami acted just as I predicted a scum would. I had strict conditions for what would make for a scum move, and he followed through with them, and that is incriminating to you because the set up only works if you are scum. So, am I leading myself in circles saying 'But what if he knew I would think that?!?", no, I am not.

Wrong. They're both WIFOM.

Because you don't seem to understand: Any and all speculation or guesswork or postulation or conclusion into anything that the scum might be considering, thinking or choosing is WIFOM. The end.

Therefore, base your case firmly out of speculation and associative tells and base it upon concrete, and the mistakes that a person has made instead.

[Supercharazad]

In theory, anything anybody takes as evidence of anything is trying to guess what somebody is thinking, as anybody could lie about anything, so on that level you have to guess they are telling the truth or not. But you can put forward a test, without worrying about what somebody is thinking, and give it win and loose conditions. That way there is no 'What if he is thinking this!' to it, it is just he takes the bait, or he does not.

If you haven't noticed, this entire game is a mind game. Telling me to stop playing mind games is like telling me to hammer myself, pointless.

So yeah, give me some reasons for voting me that arn't bullshit.

[lordnincompoop]

In theory, anything anybody takes as evidence of anything is trying to guess what somebody is thinking, as anybody could lie about anything, so on that level you have to guess they are telling the truth or not. But you can put forward a test, without worrying about what somebody is thinking, and give it win and loose conditions. That way there is no 'What if he is thinking this!' to it, it is just he takes the bait, or he does not.

Regardless of the validity of the tactic, you have to face the fact that you can not pull this off with your experience, and this early on in your career. You simply cannot.

If you haven't noticed, this entire game is a mind game. Telling me to stop playing mind games is like telling me to hammer myself, pointless.

I swear, this is like beating my head against a brick wall.

But, for what it's worth, I'll restate what I've said before:

Start building cases on others by pointing out their flaws and going on that. You've done this here, despite its disorganised state:

Onto scum reasoning.

-At one point you unvoted me because 'no scum hunting was going on' but then when I didn't change my vote you put it right back on. That looks like a scum trying to vote back against somebody putting pressure on, rather than somebody looking for scum. You thought to remove me from the game, then when you found you didn;t have enough steam to follow through you hoped that if you moved on then so would I nd you would be off the hook. When it didn't work you went right back to voting for me.
-You first voted for me just because I was inactive. Hell, we all know how tight this game is and how much pressure there is to not fuck up, but you were willing to not only place a vote on me, but carry through with it, until now.

-When I looked done for, I made it clear you were going with me, and Okami backed down, and even sided with me, then voted for who he hoped I would too. Incriminating for Okami, but it only works if you are scum, so it is equally incriminating for you.

Please keep going with this.

In theory, anything anybody takes as evidence of anything is trying to guess what somebody is thinking, as anybody could lie about anything, so on that level you have to guess they are telling the truth or not. But you can put forward a test, without worrying about what somebody is thinking, and give it win and loose conditions. That way there is no 'What if he is thinking this!' to it, it is just he takes the bait, or he does not.

If you haven't noticed, this entire game is a mind game. Telling me to stop playing mind games is like telling me to hammer myself, pointless.

So yeah, give me some reasons for voting me that arn't bullshit.

And you. Restate your reasons, please, because I've had quite enough of your senseless jabbing.

And why aren't you investigating anyone else at this point? Have you no other suspects?

[Think0028]

Now, counterpoint to Max's current argument separate from the informative post:

Max. I am so tempted to hammer you now with every bone in my body, but I'm only holding back because I still think you're just a beginner.

Regarding Okami, consider this possibility: Okami voted you because you weren't posting and were evading questions when you did post, which together is quite suspicious. When you started posting and Okami had more information (namely that you were trying to be a puppet-master and failing), he changed his vote because now he thinks you're Town. I'm pretty sure that's possible because I would have gone through the exact same process were I in from the start.

Regarding Super: I do think he's scum, and you're actually finally posting good solid reasons for that! That's good! Do more of that.

Regarding WIFOM: Just because you refuse to deal with the possibility of scum noticing your 'trap' doesn't make it not WIFOM. Your utter inability to consider the possibility of false positives is also bad. Your refusal to admit flaws in yourself at all would almost guarantee you as scum in my mind, were it not for the fact that your playstyle is so terrible that I'm convinced you're a beginner. Please go read some other Mafia games here. Look at what works and what doesn't.

PPE: Damnit LNCP stop being faster than me.

[Supercharazad]

And you. Restate your reasons, please, because I've had quite enough of your senseless jabbing.

And why aren't you investigating anyone else at this point? Have you no other suspects?

1: Not doing anything at start of game
2: Voting me and only giving reasons after asked for them
3: Causing so much WIFOM it's cringe-worthy
4: Giving reasons for voting me that happen to be bullshit, and refusing to give other reasons.

[Supercharazad]

Also, I'm not investigating other people, because I'm almost certain he's scum. When he's lynched, I'm going to look for someone who seems a bit different, and press them on it until we win.

[Max White]

Max. I am so tempted to hammer you now with every bone in my body, but I'm only holding back because I still think you're just a beginner.

Oh, I know this bit! Is this where I demand reasons, then state that given reasons were not good enough?
Come on, after all I have gone through, your not going to 'show me how it is done', so to say, by at least saying why. Give me a list of reasons so that I can start calling WIFOM.

[Think0028]

I gave you reasons. Right there. That was my entire post, discussing how you are wrong in your attacks. I want to hammer you because I find your attacks and posts quite bad.

[Max White]

Oh, ok. Thought they were directed to those people, not directed to me about those people.

What I can't understand is if everybody has some suspicion about either super or myself, why we can't agree on getting rid of at least one of them. Get rid of super, and we are one step closer to winning, get rid of me and I vengekill super, so at the cost of a life we are one step closer to winning. Killing either of us is doing the town a service, but one way you don't have to go 2v1 with a scum.