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[Okami No Rei]

Can't post tonight. Apartment flooded.  Must clean.  See you tomorrow evening.

[major_sephiroth]

I've been busy. Seems the suspend idea has been accepted.
Just here to say Max is right about the explanation.

[Max White]

Just posting to say I am very actively lurking this thread until we go active again. Please, anybody, if you are reading this and thinking that you will not bother to sign up as a replacement because we are not active, I assure you, it is just because we are waiting for you. Join the hell up!

[IronyOwl]

I would further like to state that this will not be an overly long commitment. As several people have mentioned, there's very good odds for the day to end on Day 1, and it's not physically possible for it to go longer than D2. They're very intense Days, of course, but it's nonetheless a brief gametype.

[Think0028]

I'll replace in.

[IronyOwl]

YAY! Think0028, you're in.

Votecount
Supercharazad - 1 - Max White
Max White - 1 - major_sephiroth
Think0028 - 1 - Supercharazad
Okami No Rei - 0
major_sephiroth - 1 - Okami No Rei


Think0028 has replaced Taricus.

You should officially resume playing.

[Think0028]

My initial two suspects are major_sephiroth and supercharazad. I'm currently more suspicious of major_sephiroth. You were intent on lynching a lurker which is incredibly dangerous in Vengeful, you were the first to put a second vote on someone, and when pressed on not giving substantial backing for your vote, you cast aspersions on other players. You also have been attacking Max White whom I believe to be an innocent and naive townie. I think you are pressing Taricus and Max because their lurking makes them easy targets for a lynch that would push through a scum victory. Why threaten lurkers with lynching in Vengeful, where one bad lynch can end the game? I understand your frustration with lurking, as nothing to analyze gives absolutely no tells to work with, but frustration does not mean cause for lynching. What convinces you that Max White is scum trying to manipulate people with (no offense Max White) rather terrible and obviously beginner's WIFOM?

[Max White]

Welcome, Think0028! Time to get you up to date.
Close, but sad to say, I think you are off. Our friend major_sephiroth is but a townie, in my current opinion. How do I know this? Well it is because I am a narcissist, and believe the world revolves around me, so lets start with me! Why am I still alive, after getting two and a half votes? I lurker, OMGSU voted, lied and all around had fun acting scummy. Good times were had, and I got very close to being voted out, but was not.
Okami No Rei said that he would have voted me out were it anybody else, stating curiosity as a reason to hear me out. I call bullshit! He didn't want to vote me out because my hammer was (And still is) aimed at Supercharazad, and so if I were going down, Supercharazad was going down with me. Okami No Rei did not want this because he, and Supercharazad are scum, and he wanted to protect he's buddy. 2v5 is better odds then 1v3.
When I gave me reasoning for why I was voting for Supercharazad, I made sure of several things
1. I was focused on Supercharazad, so that any scum knew what was coming if I was hammered.
2. I also gave focus to major_sephiroth, while saying that there might still be scum among the others. This is the perfect set up for any scum not aiming at me, because they can try and convince me to vote for major_sephiroth, and when he is a townie, still shift blame to another, maybe even myself. It is a tasty piece of bait.

Okami No Rei ate that bait hook, line and sinker. He cast a vote for major_sephiroth, thinking I would support him in this act, while saying that all doubts about me were washed away. Hell, nothing I said proves I am really a townie, and any other scum hunter would still be wondering about me.

The scum here are supercharazad and Okami No Rei. To all you townies out there, you might or might not believe me, however, I ask but one thing. You hammer either supercharazad or myself. If I get hammered, I plan to vengekill supercharazad, leaving 2 v 1, and basically proving that Okami No Rei was trying to protect supercharazad, so you can take him down fast. However, for a more for filling win, with all townies in tact, vote for supercharazad.

[Supercharazad]

The scum here are supercharazad and Okami No Rei. To all you townies out there, you might or might not believe me, however, I ask but one thing. You hammer either supercharazad or myself. If I get hammered, I plan to vengekill supercharazad, leaving 2 v 1, and basically proving that Okami No Rei was trying to protect supercharazad, so you can take him down fast. However, for a more for filling win, with all townies in tact, vote for supercharazad.

You seem VERY intent on getting me lynched.

Kindly give all your reasons for your being absolutly certain that I MUST be scum.
unvote, vote Max: I don't like the fact that you are pushing for a lynch with barely any evidence against me. And yet, as you said, you are guilty of:

Why am I still alive, after getting two and a half votes? I lurker, OMGSU voted, lied and all around had fun acting scummy.

So yeah, I'm pretty sure  you're scum now.
No hard feelings.

[lordnincompoop]

Continued!

If you don't want to read it all, Use Ctrl+F and find your name to read the bits that are relevant to you, and read everything in italics. It's educational!

The tutorial guide was some what lacking in how.

You see, this is why you play a BM game instead of jumping into Vengeful.

Oh, missed that one.
Well, one has to wonder must wonder... If scum did notice such a post, would they not pay attention to it and try for two votes? There are two of them, and if they think I am going to vote for the first person to gather two votes, wouldn't they instantly team up to vote somebody out? It would make sense that is suddenly a pair jumped out of the woodwork ready to lynch, they would be scum. Although currently the only two votes together are against me, and I am not going to vote for myself, so we can assume they are either both too dumb to notice the chance, or two smart to notice it, we will never know.

WIFOM. I don't think I need to say more.

Additionally, never attempt a "trap" or a "gambit", especially at your skill level. Focus on scumhunting properly instead.

For one thing, don't insult me.

Deal w/ it, princess.

Okami, You're calling me an active lurker? You're the one with a prod for inactivity.

A little hasty there, don't you think?

Two points are to be made here:

• Active lurking is different from pure lurking; activelurking posting so that you appear active, but submitting little content in each post so that you are in fact not participating actively in the game.
• Though turning an attacker's points back onto themselves is a valid tactic, keep in mind that this does not falsify their points against you; you're still in just as much trouble as before. To get heat off, you must be able to answer for your actions and defend yourself well.

And, while you've said lurking isn't a Godfather tell, it does seem to be a scumtell.

It isn't. At least, when it isn't compounded onto a bigger case or given in context.

Onto Max.

First off, watch those sarcasm tags. While this is a beginners game, we're still out to win.  Instead of waiting to see how this mafia game developed, you could look at other topics and see how other guys do their stuff in the opening stages. It would have to be adjusted because this is a vengeful game, but it would give you an idea. Sitting back and watching is a GREAT way to be called scum. Scum.

Yes, indeed. Passivity is a great way to get called out, and while I won't point any fingers some of you've been doing that far too much.

Third, make up your own how.

But do so in a well-informed manner. This is why I suggest joining a BM game instead of this; the more experienced ICs there are better equipped to deal with complete newbies.

So, you're either scum yourself, trying to convince us otherwise by saying you would have bandwagoned me, just scum, town misleading the rest of the town, or stupid town.
None of these options lead you to being a helpful townie.
Also, there's been plenty of votecounts, and it's been brought up in conversation - the scum would know the next vote would hammer you, and if you weren't one of them, they would have done it by now.

My vote stays.

Be careful with where you take this. It's approaching unsafe waters.

Vote Supercharazad[\color]

You must always explain your reasoning behind votes. You clearly have not done so here.

The very fact that I am still alive is a testament to your scummy nature. 

Oh yes, definitely. Pushing for your own lynch is a very smart move, too. [/sarcasm]

No, it's a testament to the fact that someone doesn't want you hammered right now.

Wrong! It is a testament to the fact that two people do not want me hammered right now. That leaves you and major_sephiroth. Townies would be more careful about there votes, because they have to make sure they do not kill other townies, while scum know each other, and can slaughter any townie should the chance come up. The fact that two people are trying to be careful, while two others are trying to hammer, shows who is scum and who is a townie. Your trying to hammer.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to do here, but I'm almost certain the premise is wrong and WIFOM.

Again, do not speculate on scum motives unless you know what you're doing, which you don't.

You also did not answer me question on why you voted me without a reason? You're only giving details LONG after the vote, which leads me to believe that you just wanted to do it to try and get a quick hammer on me.

You wanted details, so I gave you details. What do you want me to do, go back in time? There is nothing I can do about when, just give you long details on why, and that is what I did, and it is not good enough for you. Or maybe it is good enough, your just denying it because you are scum. If you keep trying to deface my claims, then maybe somebody else will come over and hammer me, and that is one less townie for you to worry about.

You're spending too much time telling him he's scum and speculating, and not enough time is spent actually gathering evidence against him. Start bringing up something concrete to the table, or I'm going to call you out further.

Your vote was bullshit, your arguments are bullshit and, quite frankly, your credibility as town is bullshit.

I beg to differ.

I'm inclined to agree with Super. Stop using WIFOM.

Quite frankly, your arguments are inane and useless. I'm almost getting the sense that you're trying to lynch yourself to prove a point, but the point you're trying to prove is fundamentally flawed and incredibly speculative.

And with that, you've shattered all my doubts about your being Town.

All you are trying to do Supercharazad, is try to convince one other townie that I must be scum because you say so. Both Taricus and Okami No Rei have shown they are not motivated to hammer for the sake of hammering, but you have proven to be willing to hammer. Scum.

Willing to hammer... For what purpose, exactly?

You need more than just one weak conclusion based off of one post. If you want to successfully drive a lynch, bring several strong arguments to the table.


More to come, then!

[Okami No Rei]

Wrong! It is a testament to the fact that two people do not want me hammered right now.

Wrong.  It is a testament to the fact that you have zero experience, have not read the rules, and are making assumptions about the rules that exclude the basic knowledge that a scum role pm would provide.  You could still be bluffing.  I don't give you that much credit.

Okami No Rei said that he would have voted me out were it anybody else, stating curiosity as a reason to hear me out. I call bullshit!

Your narcissism is getting the better of you.  I didn't say "were it anybody else".

Max White - In any other format you'd die with this post, but out of a morbid sense of curiosity I'd like to hear you try to explain this away before I drop the hammer.  So let's hear it.

Giving you an opportunity to explain yourself is a necessary aspect of Vengeful.  The "morbid sense of curiosity" bit is added flavor for a decision that is only rational, given how little evidence we have to work with in making effectively MyLo decisions.

He didn't want to vote me out because my hammer was (And still is) aimed at Supercharazad, and so if I were going down, Supercharazad was going down with me.

Please stop calling it your hammer.  It's your vote.  It only becomes a hammer when you have the potential to hammer someone.  As for your vengekill, that is your decision, and yours alone, to make.

Okami No Rei did not want this because he, and Supercharazad are scum, and he wanted to protect he's buddy. 2v5 is better odds then 1v3.
When I gave me reasoning for why I was voting for Supercharazad, I made sure of several things
1. I was focused on Supercharazad, so that any scum knew what was coming if I was hammered.
2. I also gave focus to major_sephiroth, while saying that there might still be scum among the others. This is the perfect set up for any scum not aiming at me, because they can try and convince me to vote for major_sephiroth, and when he is a townie, still shift blame to another, maybe even myself. It is a tasty piece of bait.

Very subtle.  I didn't even notice.

Okami No Rei ate that bait hook, line and sinker.

Would you like a medal? /sarcasm

He cast a vote for major_sephiroth, thinking I would support him in this act

I still think you will, because I still think he's scum.  You'll notice I have reasoning, indeed, an actual case backing my vote.

While saying that all doubts about me were washed away.  Hell, nothing I said proves I am really a townie, and any other scum hunter would still be wondering about me.

See above.

The scum here are supercharazad and Okami No Rei. To all you townies out there, you might or might not believe me, however, I ask but one thing. You hammer either supercharazad or myself. If I get hammered, I plan to vengekill supercharazad, leaving 2 v 1, and basically proving that Okami No Rei was trying to protect supercharazad, so you can take him down fast. However, for a more for filling win, with all townies in tact, vote for supercharazad.

You have a case against supercharazad, but I want to crossexamine Think before I make a decision between the two of them.

what if one of them were acting very cunning and holding back just to be sure, waiting for the other to vote me off?

I doubt that both are scum and trying the exact same tactic

And with that, you've shattered all my doubts about your being Town.

And with that, you've shown yourself as a good candidate for his scumpartner.

Meh. I stand by my reasoning.  Would you like to point out any particular flaws in it, or are you just going to leave it at a general charge of buddying?


Think0028 - You called supercharazad your second pick for scum, and then just left that thread hanging.  Let's have your perspective on him as well.

major_sephiroth - You can't hide behind a suspension anymore.  Get your scum behind back out here.

[Think0028]

Okay, here's my case on Supercharazad: he called out Max White on a mistake (putting the mod name in red text) in an aggressive way (this is not a bastard mod, we can safely assume no one is actually voting for the mod). While there are game format mistakes that can clearly indicate scum, putting the mod's name in red is not one of them. In that same post, he calls his previous post where he repeatedly accused Max of being scum as just 'arguing', and not scumhunting and promptly switches his vote. After he had yelled at Max White for switching votes when pressured. And finally, he votes for a lurker who's looking for a replace. I'd find voting a lurker suspicious (it's one reason why I suspect major_sephiroth after all) but he's also pressing someone looking for a replacement. That's why I have supercharazad as my second scum pick.

[major_sephiroth]

My initial two suspects are major_sephiroth and supercharazad. I'm currently more suspicious of major_sephiroth. You were intent on lynching a lurker which is incredibly dangerous in Vengeful, you were the first to put a second vote on someone, and when pressed on not giving substantial backing for your vote, you cast aspersions on other players. You also have been attacking Max White whom I believe to be an innocent and naive townie. I think you are pressing Taricus and Max because their lurking makes them easy targets for a lynch that would push through a scum victory. Why threaten lurkers with lynching in Vengeful, where one bad lynch can end the game? I understand your frustration with lurking, as nothing to analyze gives absolutely no tells to work with, but frustration does not mean cause for lynching. What convinces you that Max White is scum trying to manipulate people with (no offense Max White) rather terrible and obviously beginner's WIFOM?

I wasn't lynching him because he was lurking, I was lynching him because he was inactive and a damn useless town on the rare occasions he was. Also, if we ignore lurkers, the scum will just lurk and go under everyone's radar.

Welcome, Think0028! Time to get you up to date.
Close, but sad to say, I think you are off. Our friend major_sephiroth is but a townie, in my current opinion. How do I know this? Well it is because I am a narcissist, and believe the world revolves around me, so lets start with me! Why am I still alive, after getting two and a half votes? I lurker, OMGSU voted, lied and all around had fun acting scummy. Good times were had, and I got very close to being voted out, but was not.
Okami No Rei said that he would have voted me out were it anybody else, stating curiosity as a reason to hear me out. I call bullshit! He didn't want to vote me out because my hammer was (And still is) aimed at Supercharazad, and so if I were going down, Supercharazad was going down with me. Okami No Rei did not want this because he, and Supercharazad are scum, and he wanted to protect he's buddy. 2v5 is better odds then 1v3.
When I gave me reasoning for why I was voting for Supercharazad, I made sure of several things
1. I was focused on Supercharazad, so that any scum knew what was coming if I was hammered.
2. I also gave focus to major_sephiroth, while saying that there might still be scum among the others. This is the perfect set up for any scum not aiming at me, because they can try and convince me to vote for major_sephiroth, and when he is a townie, still shift blame to another, maybe even myself. It is a tasty piece of bait.

Okami No Rei ate that bait hook, line and sinker. He cast a vote for major_sephiroth, thinking I would support him in this act, while saying that all doubts about me were washed away. Hell, nothing I said proves I am really a townie, and any other scum hunter would still be wondering about me.

The scum here are supercharazad and Okami No Rei. To all you townies out there, you might or might not believe me, however, I ask but one thing. You hammer either supercharazad or myself. If I get hammered, I plan to vengekill supercharazad, leaving 2 v 1, and basically proving that Okami No Rei was trying to protect supercharazad, so you can take him down fast. However, for a more for filling win, with all townies in tact, vote for supercharazad.

So you're new to Mafia, and claiming to be playing mindgames. If you're right about Okami, then that either makes you a damn lucky town, or the godfather trying to avoid a lynch. I sure as hell don't believe you.
Also, as Superchar picked up, you outright admitted to doing stupid things. You're either stupid scum, or stupid town, and I'm heavily leaning on stupid town.

And, while you've said lurking isn't a Godfather tell, it does seem to be a scumtell.

It isn't. At least, when it isn't compounded onto a bigger case or given in context.
He's also being generally useless. He's claiming he's used mindgames and is also half pushing for his own lynch - He's a stupid scum, with a very low chance of godfafther.

Onto Max.

First off, watch those sarcasm tags. While this is a beginners game, we're still out to win.  Instead of waiting to see how this mafia game developed, you could look at other topics and see how other guys do their stuff in the opening stages. It would have to be adjusted because this is a vengeful game, but it would give you an idea. Sitting back and watching is a GREAT way to be called scum. Scum.

Yes, indeed. Passivity is a great way to get called out, and while I won't point any fingers some of you've been doing that far too much.
I get busy sometimes.

So, you're either scum yourself, trying to convince us otherwise by saying you would have bandwagoned me, just scum, town misleading the rest of the town, or stupid town.
None of these options lead you to being a helpful townie.
Also, there's been plenty of votecounts, and it's been brought up in conversation - the scum would know the next vote would hammer you, and if you weren't one of them, they would have done it by now.

My vote stays.

Be careful with where you take this. It's approaching unsafe waters.
I'll attempt to avoid them then.

Answers in Green. Also in Green below.

Okami No Rei said that he would have voted me out were it anybody else, stating curiosity as a reason to hear me out. I call bullshit!

Your narcissism is getting the better of you.  I didn't say "were it anybody else".
Agreed - I haven't seen you utter that line. He's basing arguements in fantasyland again.

Okami No Rei did not want this because he, and Supercharazad are scum, and he wanted to protect he's buddy. 2v5 is better odds then 1v3.
When I gave me reasoning for why I was voting for Supercharazad, I made sure of several things
1. I was focused on Supercharazad, so that any scum knew what was coming if I was hammered.
2. I also gave focus to major_sephiroth, while saying that there might still be scum among the others. This is the perfect set up for any scum not aiming at me, because they can try and convince me to vote for major_sephiroth, and when he is a townie, still shift blame to another, maybe even myself. It is a tasty piece of bait.

Very subtle.  I didn't even notice.
My assumption is he got lucky with the mindgame. That sort of thing is usually alot more obvious. Also, Max, stop stroking your ego, we don't care.

Okami No Rei ate that bait hook, line and sinker.

Would you like a medal? /sarcasm
He's just stroking his precious ego.

He cast a vote for major_sephiroth, thinking I would support him in this act

I still think you will, because I still think he's scum.  You'll notice I have reasoning, indeed, an actual case backing my vote.
Summarise or link it for me, if you would.
major_sephiroth - You can't hide behind a suspension anymore.  Get your scum behind back out here.
I've been busy. My life isn't the B12 Forums.

Okay, here's my case on Supercharazad: he called out Max White on a mistake (putting the mod name in red text) in an aggressive way (this is not a bastard mod, we can safely assume no one is actually voting for the mod). While there are game format mistakes that can clearly indicate scum, putting the mod's name in red is not one of them. In that same post, he calls his previous post where he repeatedly accused Max of being scum as just 'arguing', and not scumhunting and promptly switches his vote. After he had yelled at Max White for switching votes when pressured. And finally, he votes for a lurker who's looking for a replace. I'd find voting a lurker suspicious (it's one reason why I suspect major_sephiroth after all) but he's also pressing someone looking for a replacement. That's why I have supercharazad as my second scum pick.

I'm running low on time. I'm just going to say I don't like this post and explain later.

[Max White]

Don't worry major_sephiroth, I believe you.
Also, you should all remember, sometimes when a person seems like they are an insane raving lunatic, it is because they see what you can not, they have a deeper in site than you do, they know what you can not understand. Perhaps my insane and stupid antics are the work of brilliance? Maybe you are all but two old men who have been playing chess against each other for so long, that when somebody new comes along, you can not understand there way of thought and there actions seem strange to you, so you assume them to be wrong, then they mop the floor with you.
Of coarse that would imply that I knew what I was doing,  as this is my first game, it would seem to dictate that it is I who can not understand you, and I am but a child playing with a force he can not fully understand. Maybe, just maybe, were my head just slightly smaller, I would come to see this for myself, and take a step back. I guess the only way that will ever happen is if by the end of this game, Okami No Rei and Supercharazad are not scum, and you gloat until I see reason. Well good luck with that, I hope this comes to pass, for the sake of my own reputation.

Wrong.  It is a testament to the fact that you have zero experience, have not read the rules, and are making assumptions about the rules that exclude the basic knowledge that a scum role pm would provide.  You could still be bluffing.  I don't give you that much credit.

Aww, but it would make for such a great cover, wouldn't it? Shame I am not scum, else I would be able to win from ignorance along, and that would be cool.

Very subtle.  I didn't even notice.

Yes, didn't notice indeed. I noticed you didn't notice, thus your actions. I mean if you noticed I was trying to use my feeble skills and narrow mind to form a cunning trap, you might have mentioned it, or at least not acted exactly like how I thought you would.

Would you like a medal? /sarcasm

Na, I would prefer an achievement, that way I get points! /sarcasm

You have a case against supercharazad, but I want to crossexamine Think before I make a decision between the two of them.

Well if three people here are at least looking at supercharazad and suspecting as scum, then it is possible to knock him off, and to be honest if you were one of the three to vote of a scum, I would be very much convinced that you are a townie. I mean hell, not 100% convinced, as you could be sacrificing one of your own, hoping to win in a 1v4, and you seem like you might be able to, but it would be in no way desirable. Like, 95% convinced, if you want some number to try and quantify it.

[lordnincompoop]

Don't worry major_sephiroth, I believe you.
Also, you should all remember, sometimes when a person seems like they are an insane raving lunatic, it is because they see what you can not, they have a deeper in site than you do, they know what you can not understand. Perhaps my insane and stupid antics are the work of brilliance? Maybe you are all but two old men who have been playing chess against each other for so long, that when somebody new comes along, you can not understand there way of thought and there actions seem strange to you, so you assume them to be wrong, then they mop the floor with you.

No. You're a raving idiot, and don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise. I cannot stress this point enough.

Stop trying to fuck with other people's heads, because:

• You simply can't pull it off.
• You're being an idiot, and a jackass.
• This is not how you play Mafia. Period.
• You're not playing Mafia. All you're accomplishing here is just digging yourself a deeper hole.