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Author Topic: Question for Christians  (Read 9468 times)

GlyphGryph

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2011, 08:01:01 am »

In some Christian views, from what I remember, Hell is reserved for those who reject god - meaning newborn babies and people who've never had the opportunity to convert are not punished and just end up in Purgatory. Views on what that means differ.

Quote
Leviticus 18:22 is the verse in question on homosexuality.  But, you might want to read the context in which that verse in mentioned.  We obey a little more in that chapter than just that one verse.
Of course you follow most of those. Most of those say the exact same thing! (No incest), and the other three non-homosexuality ones are no Bestiality, no Adultery, and no sexual relations during menstrual period (for more context see 20:(10-21)). The last bit is just foreverbanishment worthy, the others are death-worthy... but they aren't alone.   I've read the entire book of Leviticus (in multiple translations), trust me, I understand the context - not just the context of that individual verse, but the context of the book as a whole. Sure, Christian's do a pretty good job of following the sex laws, probably because they are so easy - but this is his 18th chapter of laws, and a good portion of those that come before it and after it are completely ignored. Not just the food ones, either. He organizes by topic, so the "context" is in no way surprising. The only thing that IS slightly surprising is he doesn't go on to condemn fornification in general like pretty much every other chapter of the Bible that mentions laying with a man.
Other things he describes that must never be done:
Tattoos
Eating from a fruit tree before the fifth year
No shaving your beard
Seeing psychics (penalty of death)

If there was going to be any chapter they decided not to ignore, why couldn't they have focused on ch19:(9-17), eh? That's a pretty good one, and the stuff in it is condemned, arguably, even more heavily than in ch18. (depends on translation, in my experience though)

And it is easy to see how the Church could have dropped this books importance, claiming it only applied to the Jews in Isreal, because of that context. The book is almost completely about the laws for the nation they are being given in a way. But it doesn't explain why they would continue to use it to argue against certain things - I mean, the incest ban is reiterated a whole bunch of times in other books, but it was also explicitly stated to not be a specifically Christian doctrine, but rather something not tolerated even among the pagan's and thus something which everyone realized was wrong. There's also the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, but wow does that change a lot depending on the translation you read, eh?
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devek

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2011, 08:04:51 am »

Well, most bigots I run into are not quoting leviticus as much as timothy. Which as I pointed out earlier is probably a forgery at best hehe, and if it wasn't there is no explanation to why Paul went from praising women in the church to telling them to shut up and just have babies.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2011, 12:07:34 pm »

Well, most bigots I run into are not quoting leviticus as much as timothy. Which as I pointed out earlier is probably a forgery at best hehe, and if it wasn't there is no explanation to why Paul went from praising women in the church to telling them to shut up and just have babies.

Man, if they quoted Paul that might be a bit better, only runs I ever run into quote Leviticus. :/

Of course, Paul has some odd bits that get ignored too, like the prohibition on women praying without wearing a head covering, and that phrase weighs just as heavily against ALL fornicators (and liars and idolaters and drunkards). But yeah, definitely a much better argument of being sourced from the bible than Levi.
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Cthulhu

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2011, 06:08:15 am »

I'm pretty sure there are other books that have things about homosexuality, or maybe those were in Timothy (Something along the lines of one place/church, Corinth I think, being so terrible women were doing women and the like).

I stand by what I said before.  If a church doesn't want to marry gay couples, I think that's within their rights.  They don't want to perform a ceremony they think is against God's will.  I don't think a church should refuse to accept homosexuals into their "fold" or refuse them funerals.  That's hypocritical.  Don't bother others about the motes in their eyes unless your own eyes are clean and all that.
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Dutchling

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2011, 07:17:38 am »

Most if not all of the ''silly'' rules in the bible were just for hygienic purposes.
Animals that the Jews are disallowed to eat were very unhealthy at that time (diseases etc). There is even a part in the bible describing how soldiers should dig holes outside their camp to defecate in.

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Shambling Zombie

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2011, 08:01:22 am »

Most if not all of the ''silly'' rules in the bible were just for hygienic purposes.
Animals that the Jews are disallowed to eat were very unhealthy at that time (diseases etc). There is even a part in the bible describing how soldiers should dig holes outside their camp to defecate in.

So people are told to slay people collecting fire wood on the wrong day for hygenic reasons?
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Euld

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2011, 09:33:24 am »

I don't think a church should refuse to accept homosexuals into their "fold" or refuse them funerals.  That's hypocritical.  Don't bother others about the motes in their eyes unless your own eyes are clean and all that.
Agreed... I had no idea some churches actually refuse to hold a funeral for homosexuals D:  That's just plain nuts.

So people are told to slay people collecting fire wood on the wrong day for hygenic reasons?
::)
Here's the verse in question.  The Sabbath wasn't set up for hygenic reasons, it was a spiritual one.  Essentially, in addition to occasionally sacrificing the best of the flocks, and tithing their income to the priesthood, Israel had to take a day off.  They did as little work as possible and used the time to worship God.  People don't go collecting firewood every day, the guy actually had a choice or he didn't bother collecting firewood the day before.  But what if he was a good-intentioned person who was concerned about his family?  Then he should have asked a neighbor for enough firewood to last them the day and then give them extra later.  He was stoned because he knew what God commanded and he decided to ignore it.

Leafsnail

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2011, 10:06:15 am »

He was stoned because he knew what God commanded and he decided to ignore it.
You could apply this justification to any law ever.

"Well... decapitation may seem a harsh punishment for wearing a green t-shirt, but he knew what we commanded and decided to ignore it".
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Dutchling

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2011, 02:34:52 pm »

Most if not all of the ''silly'' rules in the bible were just for hygienic purposes.
Animals that the Jews are disallowed to eat were very unhealthy at that time (diseases etc). There is even a part in the bible describing how soldiers should dig holes outside their camp to defecate in.

So people are told to slay people collecting fire wood on the wrong day for hygenic reasons?
With silly I mean there doesn't seem to be a real reason. The wrong day is a clear reason.
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Shambling Zombie

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2011, 07:50:26 pm »

He was stoned because he knew what God commanded and he decided to ignore it.
You could apply this justification to any law ever.

"Well... decapitation may seem a harsh punishment for wearing a green t-shirt, but he knew what we commanded and decided to ignore it".

Yeah, seems entirely harsh and cruel to me. Just for being too lazy to get firewood the day before, he must die a horribly painful death. Still, I'm de-railing here, so gonna stop now.
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2011, 08:35:24 pm »

He was stoned because he knew what God commanded and he decided to ignore it.
you say that as if that was perfectly reasonable

devek

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2011, 08:48:48 pm »

He was stoned because he knew what God commanded and he decided to ignore it.
you say that as if that was perfectly reasonable

Your right, it wasn't reasonable and any Jew would agree with you. Remember that Jews don't have things like heaven and hell, the purpose of Jewish law isn't to build riches in heaven or to avoid eternal damnation. The point is to simply think about what you're doing. There were many ways he could have solved the firewood problem if he had just thought about it, but he didn't. Stoning him to death however totally missed the point the law in the first place.
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MirrorIrorriM

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2011, 05:59:51 pm »

He was stoned because he knew what God commanded and he decided to ignore it.
You could apply this justification to any law ever.

"Well... decapitation may seem a harsh punishment for wearing a green t-shirt, but he knew what we commanded and decided to ignore it".

The main difference here is that in one scenario it is a man saying to do something ridiculous.  In the other it is God saying that you should do what he frikken says because he is God.  Sometimes the justification in an order is found in the authority of the person giving it.
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Shambling Zombie

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2011, 06:49:06 pm »

The main difference here is that in one scenario it is a man saying to do something ridiculous.  In the other it is God saying that you should do what he frikken says because he is God.  Sometimes the justification in an order is found in the authority of the person giving it.

I guess that's where I would disagree. No matter how powerful an entity, it does not make its orders inherently right. In my mind, murder at the command of God is still, in the end, murder.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2011, 06:55:49 pm »

The main difference here is that in one scenario it is a man saying to do something ridiculous.  In the other it is God saying that you should do what he frikken says because he is God.  Sometimes the justification in an order is found in the authority of the person giving it.
That's kindof moved the goalposts rather a lot (from "Most Christian laws make sense because of hygeine" to "Christian laws should be followed because God says so and he's God").

I'd like you to expand on that view.  Does God saying it make it ok because he must have a secret reason for not wanting people to collect sticks on Saturday?  Or is the stoning justified because God simply cannot be disobeyed, with the law itself being irrelevant?  Or is it because God somehow defines what's right by saying it?  I'm kindof interested.
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