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Author Topic: Books  (Read 3727 times)

catoblepas

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Re: Books
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2011, 06:20:00 pm »

Perhaps books could be handled in some manner similar to record keeping? a percentage or something till it gets completed, with the dwarf taking breaks, but the breaks not canceling progress. If books take a season or more to write, it would give them a bigger importance and rarity then just another trade item. Additionally, perhaps writing skill manuals to teach other dwarves with could be something reserved for dwarves who have reached legendary status? That way, new manuals books would only come in a slow trickle, and only when you start getting legendary dwarves. They could be mandated or done in some other way, perhaps in a dwarf's free time. Otherwise I suppose you could import instruction books, but they might be of variable usefulness (a dwarf might be able to learn a lot more about planting from an elf-scribed book, for instance) They would probably be expensive and would likely be rare unless specifically requested in trade agreements.

Holy books, record books for trade agreements & treaties, stocks, and crimes and punishments, and history books are all other possibilities-I think there is ample reason to implement a feature such as this, it could add a lot to the game, and wouldn't necessarily have to be just a decoration or trade item, there are many ways that important texts could be beneficial, and many ways that having them lost or stolen could be harmful to the fort, and it would certainly help add to the diversity of fort.
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sockless

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Re: Books
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2011, 06:22:56 pm »

One problem, a legendary stonemason isn't likely to be literate. Most tradespeople that I know (no offense intended to them) are rather dumb. Back in Medieval days, they wouldn't have been able to read or write. Reading and writing in the lower classes is a rather new thing really.
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Patchy

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Re: Books
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2011, 06:45:08 pm »

To be honest, I'd be happy with books and bookcases as just another item to decorate forts with and add value. I go crazy with the statues in some of my oldest forts, and while they are nice and dwarfy I'd like some more furniture and stuff to decorate with. The best part of df to me is the building and designing of dwarven cities. Making them look as grand as possible and such.
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catoblepas

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Re: Books
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2011, 06:49:24 pm »

Right, this is why a literacy skill was also suggested. At any rate, there were trade books written up in the renaissance and medieval time period. The manuals of weapon technique come to mind off the top of my head. It would be probable that a barely literate legendary mason would not be able to make as good of an trade book as a legendary bookkeeper, and a someone without the ability to read likely wouldn't get much out of reading a book, even if it was written by said bookkeeper, but they would be doubtlessly useful nonetheless. If apprentices were also implemented, perhaps in some manner similar to how combat drills are done in DF, they would definitely help make training up dwarves easier, ans well as adding a new depth of complexity. Nothing would stop you from just having your dwarves learn by trial and error, but assigning them as an apprentice to a master blacksmith or having them read a manual written by a legendary swordsman would speed things up tremendously, and cut down on material waste, training injuries, and time.

The other types of books would have their own uses, and it would be implied that a prerequisite for bookkeeping (for instance) would be literacy.
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sockless

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Re: Books
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2011, 07:38:15 pm »

Weapons books are generally about sword fighting. Swords were rich peoples weapons, the peasant used a spear. Therefore the people who used swords could often read books.
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Iv seen people who haven't had a redheaded person in their family for quite a while, and then out of nowhere two out of three of their children have red hair.
What color was the mailman's hair?

catoblepas

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Re: Books
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2011, 07:54:53 pm »

There were books that contained instruction for the use of other weapons such as pole-flails as well. The assertion that there are no manuals instructing the proper use of other weapons because they were 'peasant'  weapons is just plain wrong, as nobles throughout the middle ages readily used other weapons and had to fight against weapons besides the sword, and would have to be skilled in defense against these weapons at the very least. The association with the upper class and swords is completely absent in DF anyways, so I don't quite see your point. At any rate, I already mentioned that this could be implemented alongside an apprentice-master system. This could supplement book learning or trial methods, or it could be used to cover skills that would be unlikely to be taught through books, such as woodcutting.

Here are examples of three Manuals from the medieval period and renaissance:

Hunting Manual (hunting, correct use of a spear, etc):

Manual for a noble, covering a wide range of subjects:

Manual for various weapons, including but not limited to swords:

As you can see, there is definitely a historical precedent for their inclusion in DF, given the technological level of DF.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 08:22:44 pm by catoblepas »
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Darkweave

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Re: Books
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2011, 05:24:29 am »

I don't have time to write a long reply but  will say I agree with a fair bit of what NW_Kohaku has to say with regards to resources and especially farming. It needs to be massively changed and I don't think that requiring the farms to be larger is what is necessary, having a 10x10 farm instead of a 5x5 farm is hardly an issue, nor is letting it fallow for alternate seasons. Increased space requirements or having two extra dwarfs planting is hardly an issue. Requirements for fertilizer, possibly from grazing animal waste or some other source which requires some effort and the danger of venturing outside or in to the caverns is necessary to stop the easy 'designate a few 5x5 farm plots and forget' method that is currently viable. Personally I'd like to see underground farming removed other than being able to gather some plants from the caverns and have above-ground crops require exposure to the sky in order to grow so that your farms become a very vulnerable resource that require defending and can't be protected from all threats just by sealing yourself in. You'd still be fine against early ambushes and non-flying entities by building a wall but would have to expand your military later in the life of the fort to protect against flying hostiles.

I do however like the requirement of paper for book-keeping, management and other such jobs. The associated nobles could mandate for more paper and bookshelves in their office if they run out and become unhappy if this is not fulfilled, or even prevent more managerial and book-keeping tasks from being carried out. Dwarf Fortress is intended to be a fantasy world simulator after all and I'm all for more realism being added to the game. Just because books and libraries currently wouldn't serve much purpose it doesn't mean they won't in the future. As dwarven personalities and society are developed  they could become essential to the running of a large fortress. Music and toys don't necessarily add anything to the game but flavour but are still (hopefully) coming in with inns and more realistic parties and that sort of thing. Because of what Dwarf Fortress is and will become I think suggestions can have a lot of merit based solely on the realism side of things rather than just 'how does this add to gameplay?'.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 05:34:00 am by Darkweave »
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Starver

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Re: Books
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2011, 06:46:45 am »

One problem, a legendary stonemason isn't likely to be literate. Most tradespeople that I know (no offense intended to them) are rather dumb. Back in Medieval days, they wouldn't have been able to read or write. Reading and writing in the lower classes is a rather new thing really.
Not that I have a particular view either way, but for the illiterate there's always picture books.  In particular, my first thought w.r.t. masons (could also apply to furniture makers) are Pattern Books.  Perhaps it'd be less just "here's what we can make" and more showing cut-away diagrams of the more complex features, examples of best-practice tool handling/application (including "go with the grain!"-type pictorial instructions), examples of different ways to accomplish (say) a mechanism's internals (worm-gears, planetary gears, ball and roller bearings, balance wheels, flywheels, pressure-bellows) and ways to strengthen various constructions while keeping them light (I-beam construction, bracing, hole-drilling, tapering cross-sections, blah-de-blah-de-blah...)

Might only be useful for a decently experienced craftsdwarf, who can understand what is being illustrated, or it could start off as a pictographic "Dummies Guide To Gem Cutting" and end up (depending on the total experience of the author, who would need experience both with the craft and the art of graphical representation if his/her craft) with *masterwork* illustrations of the way to get the finest and best faceted large gem out of the most difficult uncut raw gem-crystals (including careful application of heat treatment to solve discolouration, clarity problems or possibly through fracture healing).

But that's an overly expansive treatment of what might or might not be relevant in any implementation of in-game instructional books (/parchments/tablets/etc).  I'm not sure it need necessarily be anything like that.
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sajuuk

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Re: Books
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2011, 09:47:13 pm »

I was thinking of a new noble, for example a Master Librarian who would be in charge
of dwarves marked with a new job assignment like "Scribe"

Scribes would follow your most talented dwarves in a given job for some time and write a book about them,
this would depend on their observation skill, literacy and the skill level of the dwarf being followed.
Once the scribe is finished he reports back to the Master Librarian dwarf who takes the book
to a library zone to check and assign a quality to it. The books may also be updated as dwarves gain skill instead of having to write a whole new one.

Dwarves who have books written about them would gain status, which would give them a permanent happy thought,
they would lose this if another dwarf with a higher skill level in their field had a better book written about them,
they may even become jealous of the other dwarf.

Dwarves can go to the library and study these books gaining knowledge slightly below the level of the dwarf they we're written about.
The amount of time it takes to learn would depend on the literacy of the dwarf learning it, the scribes skill and the skill of the dwarf
the book was written about. Possibly a teacher may also be assigned to the library, further speeding up the learning process.
Dwarves should also be able to learn skills in their own free time, even for jobs outside those that are assigned to them,
they may also gain happy thoughts from this since it's something they want to do rather than being ordered to do.

Books could also be written about historical events, dwarven romances and other dwarfy things. Reading these books would result in
a happy thought for some time and an increase in literacy skill.

The master librarian would also examine the quality of the books and possibly improve upon them, making
the learning time for dwarves slightly shorter or longer, depending on his literacy skill.
You could have several scribes following different dwarves, but the master librarian
could obviously only improve one book at a time.

He would also keep a detailed record of the happenings in the fort, much like legends mode
but readable during fortress mode play. This history book will give happy thoughts and maybe after some
time will gain artifact status. It would be highly sought after by raiders looking for dwarven secrets,
so the longer you have it, the more raiders would come to try their luck at stealing it.
If the history book was stolen or destroyed, it should have a very bad impact on all the dwarves in your fort
sending a large percentage of them into a depressed mood.

Books could be bought and sold, but selling dwarven books should been seen as a bad thing.
Enemies of dwarves who get their hands on these books either directly or indirectly might gain some bonus damage effect or
defense boost against dwarves, making it much harder to defend your fort, they may also learn how to avoid dwarven traps.
Buying books from humans or elves might teach dwarves how to make weapons, food, brew drinks or any number of items that
would otherwise be inaccessible to them. For example, once a book on scimitars was purchased and the order was given for them to be forged, a metalsmith would go to the library and study how to craft them, it might even take several attempts before a usable scimitar was created.

Obviously books open up the path to magic, but that has been largely discussed already.

Just my $0.02 platinum coins.
Sorry if it makes little sense or is badly written, I'm very tired and if I didn't post this now, I never would.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 09:51:47 pm by sajuuk »
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Dwarven WMD

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Re: Books
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2011, 12:57:17 pm »

Scribe: "Letter from the elves, sire"

King: "What do they want"

Scribe: "*AHEM* It appears they wish you to stop cutting down trees.  It hurts their feelings"

King: ".... and they wrote it on paper?"
Elves probably write on leaves. Or the wrong part of a papyrus plant.



Which brings me to, wouldn't we use parchment instead of paper made of wood? Because if a Dwarf tries to make paper, he's likely going to either ruin a log or make a slim wooden block. I mean the books will be bound with leather, most likely, and if you can get leather you could make parchment.
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Cespinarve

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Re: Books
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2011, 12:24:48 am »

So again, what problem do libraries solve?  If necessary, you might just have to create the problem you then get the player to solve using the libraries.

To me it's simple. I think books and libraries are best suited for training skills that don't normally have an easy access to study. You want a surgeon that's a capable fellow? Let him study his craft in books [and on cadavers, but that's another thing]. You want teachers and students to sharpen their analytical abilities? Libraries. Want to summon a Philosopher? Libraries. And so on.
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Reptoid

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Re: Books
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2011, 08:57:27 am »

In addition to allowing dwarves to learn skills from books, you could also have books produced give the fortress a reputation in certain areas. If you produce the definitive works on weaponsmithing, experienced metalsmiths are more likely to immigrate. This lets you choose which skills you want to train more dwarves in, and also get less useless immigrants.
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