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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: April 27, 2011, 09:55:14 pm

[Seriyu]

I've been getting voidwalker thieves, but somehow I don't think that's what you mean by feedback on voidwalkers.

[Jeoshua]

The Nephilim seem a touch weak, militarily.... at least if Legends mode is any indication.  I'm still trying to gen a perfect world so I haven't gotten past that in a while.

[narhiril]

I've been getting voidwalker thieves, but somehow I don't think that's what you mean by feedback on voidwalkers.

Out of curiosity, did you get a look at the equipment?  I would like some sort of confirmation that the "conjure voidshard" reaction is working for the AI.  A single weapon or piece of equipment would be all I need to see.

[Seriyu]

They only had copper daggers as per usual. I'd just assumed thieves didn't get voidshard equipment.

I didn't bother checking the armor but most if not all was leather/cloth.

[narhiril]

They only had copper daggers as per usual. I'd just assumed thieves didn't get voidshard equipment.

I didn't bother checking the armor but most if not all was leather/cloth.

They aren't permitted to create daggers, so this isn't much of a surprise.  I was hoping for a voidshard flask or something like that.  Oh well, I'll wait for someone to tell me about a siege, since these results are pretty inconclusive.

I'm putting the finishing touches on 0.11.  After a day or two more of testing or tweaks, it will be done, though I'm very busy this week.  Expect a release in the next couple of days.

[Jeoshua]

I figure that I should explain why I voted like I did.

Alchemy, Mythical minerals... we have that stuff in spades.  Every second mod that I install, I have to edit their interpretation of, say, Mithril to work with the 1000 others that I have installed already.  All kinds of different mods do it.

But none of them so far have done anything with tinkering and artificting.  Which is very unfortunate, because that always seemed way more dwarfy than alchemy.  Bells, whistles, knobs and gears.  Mechanisms.  These are the things that spark the dwarven imagination, not sorcery and potions.

[narhiril]

I figure that I should explain why I voted like I did.

Alchemy, Mythical minerals... we have that stuff in spades.  Every second mod that I install, I have to edit their interpretation of, say, Mithril to work with the 1000 others that I have installed already.  All kinds of different mods do it.

But none of them so far have done anything with tinkering and artificting.  Which is very unfortunate, because that always seemed way more dwarfy than alchemy.  Bells, whistles, knobs and gears.  Mechanisms.  These are the things that spark the dwarven imagination, not sorcery and potions.

My intentions for metals were, at first, threefold.

1) To bridge the power gap between steel and adamantine
2) To make combat metals of varying strength available in different ways
3) To introduce new options for blunt weapons, including an "endgame" blunt metal.

I feel that I have accomplished these goals with the metals already included.  For this reason, I feel that introducing more metals to the same effect would be confusing and counter-productive.  There is a point at which variety becomes overbearing, and I'd rather not find out where that point is.  The reason this is even included in the poll is to see how others feel about the way I have gone about it.

This leaves two more possible purposes for metals in the current game.

1) Economic metals.  Even though these have not been explicitly addressed, the combat metals have provided a number of high-value options for furniture and crafts.  White gold is being included as another option for incresing value in v0.11.

2) Metals with unorthodox roles (i.e. alchemy).  Like yourself, I feel that this is the most exciting - and, ironically, least explored - possible area of elaboration.   Judging from preliminary poll results, I feel like this is a logical next step.

Also, like yourself, I feel that the concept of machinery and tinkering is a theme that should be developed on.  Other mods have included metals such as enchanted forms of steel or more complicated or magic-infused alloys for combat.  While I acknowledge that some of these mods do an excellent job, I feel that the concept itself is a bit of a cop-out.  Enchantment can be used to justify anything, and is only used very sparingly in the vanilla game.  I feel that invention, mechanisms, and tinkering are a much more interesting option for expansion.

[narhiril]

This is what I have drawn up for a "tech tree" sort of thing that works with the current system.

A theoretical creature (let's call it a "wingerot") wanders into the caverns and into your fortress.  Your dwarves kill it, and it drops an item on death - which could be an item named a "wingerot's mechanical wing" (note that this is an item (probably a toy for technical reasons), not a body part).  After obtaining five wingerot wings, you will have the required reagents for a new alchemical reaction - let's call it "wingerot research."  This reaction takes the five wingerot wings and produces another otherwise unavailable item, which, for the sake of argument, I will call "advanced fabrication blueprints."  This item is then used to build a new workshop, with its associated reactions.

In this way, it is possible to restrict the construction of a building until certain conditions are met - in this case, the slaying of five wingerots, though other ideas are also possible.  Since the building cannot be constructed without the necessary item(s), the reactions associated with that building are "locked" until your civilization is able to finish construction.  This is the essence of the "tech tree" concept using the current engine.  The reactions are never actually locked, but require special materials to create the building that makes them possible.  It is even possible for one of these reactions to replicate the necessary material for the building, allowing you to build as many workshop as you wish after "unlocking" one.

I am, personally, excited about the possibilities of this concept.  This process could be used to justify advanced mechanics and technological advances that would break the game if available from the start of a fortress, but can genuinely enhance the experience as a fort ages.  A siege could be fought off with current technologies, or weathered in hopes of a game-changing technical advancement with this system.  For example, the killing of a megabeast could not only prove a historic event, but could leave behind an item that could be used to build a workshop that can fabricate a new type of weapon inspired by the beast itself.  Obviously, this weapon will still be available in moods, but will not be there to create at will until the megabeast is slain and the workshop built from its unique drop.  With the sheer volume of mood weapons already added, the probability of getting this specific weapon without finishing the prerequisite is both extremely low and inconsequential.

Sentinel core research uses this concept in the current mod, but produces a one-time result rather than a product that can be used for a workshop.

I would like some feedback here, as this idea may be a bit polarizing.  Some people may see this idea the way I do, as potential for a deeper experience, but others may feel that the restriction on production until a condition is met is frustrating.  Obviously, this is not the intention.  I am a bit concerned also about the effect that adding a lot more permitted reactions and associated "technical advancement" items will have on mandates, though this should be easily averted by wisely choosing your mayor and nobility.

[Seriyu]

I really like the idea, since, as of now, there's not really a point to having a fortress around for more then five years tops, unless you just wanna see how long you can go. I particuarly like it because it opens up the possibility of "semi overpowered" stuff to actually be used and be fairly well placed. Rock grinders come to mind.

More efficient wood/ore production, it could go a lot of places.

[Patchouli]

I tried something similar on a mod I was working on, but the problem was that waiting on a megabeast or animal that never comes really is a pain and slowed down the game a bit. They're fine for ultra-high-level stuff, but for just a basic climb up the 'tech tree', you might consider a rare mineral that can be mined, a plant that takes a long time to grow, or a material that can only be acquired from trade or enemies. But even then, you want to avoid it sort of becoming a bit of a necessity, and there should be alternative trees to branch to.

Something to consider is, "Hey, what if they don't go up the tech tree? Is the game still fun?" Because of that, I'd avoid important tech being reliant on something like animals or megabeasts. If you do use animals, make sure that there's always alternatives in every biome. A workaround to the animal thing was creating a universal bodypart that you get by butchering them. The problem was that it created an insane amount of hauling jobs, dragging it all over to the workshops to create something. I still decided to use it, but it plays a much more minor role now, and it's mostly a sort of artificial "filler" to make specific jobs take much longer than standard jobs.

[Seriyu]

Iunno, it seems to me like if a tech tree goes in it should be heavily encouraged/required to climb said tech tree. Well, not REQUIRED as that's not really possible due to the magic of walls and drawbridges but there wouldn't really be a reason not to climb it.

[Patchouli]

Naturally, there should be a lot of incentive to climbing the tech tree, it's just more along the lines of a warning to make sure that everything else doesn't suffer for it.

[Jeoshua]

... That kind of argument makes sense for a video game, but for a mod?

I mean... if you don't like what a mod does, then you don't install it, right?

[Ult1mara]

Here is a link to my first LP video of this mod, if u wanna check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWjPsq1Di3s

[Patchouli]

... That kind of argument makes sense for a video game, but for a mod?

I mean... if you don't like what a mod does, then you don't install it, right?

Yeah, it's just a suggestion and something to consider though.

Sorry if I came off hard-assed or anything.