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Voting closed: April 27, 2011, 09:55:14 pm

[Jeoshua]

It is funny.  I've been looking for them in adventure mode but.... no dice (or crowns) yet.

[Seriyu]

I should note that the bog trolls are quite challenging compared to vanilla, and you would be wise to have some traps and military ready at the end of the first year.

Yeah, you aren't joking, a bog troll thief managed to wreck two (maybe 3, I forget) farm plots, a farmer's workshop, and a leatherworker's workshop and also injure a pet dog while being chased around and shot at by about 12 military dwarves. 

[narhiril]

It is funny.  I've been looking for them in adventure mode but.... no dice (or crowns) yet.

They have no max lifespan, but might be killed off, so you're best off looking in a young world.  I am considering moving them to the walrus creature entry as a rare caste to make them reproduce, but this will involve modifying a stock raw, which I am trying to avoid.  Perhaps I can just give them children, but I want them to find a balance - they're silly, so they're supposed to be rare.

That graphic was fun to make, though.

EDIT: Looking back, I think they may be too rare.  The only show up in OCEAN_ARCTIC and have a frequency and pop number of 1.  I'm upping the frequency to 20 and the population to 1:4.  They should still be hard to find, but they're probably all dying out too fast to be able to find them at all at the moment.  Originally they were a [DOES_NOT_EXIST] creature that was only supposed to appear in engravings, but I thought this was too obscure an easter egg for anyone to find - kind of like the Half Life reference in the mood weapon raws.   Oops.

[narhiril]

I should note that the bog trolls are quite challenging compared to vanilla, and you would be wise to have some traps and military ready at the end of the first year.

Yeah, you aren't joking, a bog troll thief managed to wreck two (maybe 3, I forget) farm plots, a farmer's workshop, and a leatherworker's workshop and also injure a pet dog while being chased around and shot at by about 12 military dwarves.

I am pleased that, due to some sort of alignment of the stars or something, the lore that I put in the manual actually seems to correspond to how the game plays.  The javelin thrower really does rip those things apart, but its ammo is quite expensive.  I am scaling them down a bit in v0.11.

Apologies for double post.

Also, new poll.

[Seriyu]

Yeah, I'd made some hammerhead javelins but was waiting for a crossbow user to hit legendary before I did it to prevent wasting javelins on training. Then I made the fatal error of leaving the gate open waiting for a turkey to get back inside and whoop lizardman siege got in. 

[Jeoshua]

It won't let me vote :/

[narhiril]

It won't let me vote :/

It's an ironic statement of philosophy.  It means that I have a poll, but will do whatever I want anyway.  Bahahahah.

Just kidding.  I forgot to unlock it.  Try now.

[narhiril]

I also discovered that the bucket component of alchemy labs will degrade over time - which kind of surprised me, because I didn't even know buckets COULD degrade over time.  The problem seems to only apply to wooden buckets.  If the bucket gets too damaged, the workshop deconstructs itself.  I have no idea why this happens, but using metal buckets seems to solve the problem.  I guess the hazardous radiation blasts have a negative effect on the cell walls of the wood.

This should be fixed now.  Disastrous conflagrations may still damage the buckets, but other byproducts will not.

[Jeoshua]

Now, I don't know if this matters alot but I discovered something interesting when trying to get Nephilim to survive.  I changed their size and age to the values you said will be in the next version, and that helped a bit.  The survived until the year 300 before dying off instead of the year 50 (I'm genning a very harsh world).

So I tried giving them better armor and some reactions to create various metals and such and so forth.

Didn't help.

Then I looked at what was going on in LegendsViewer, and I found that nearly every Nephilim was starving to death.  I searched for some way to make them not do so, but I simply could not.  The farming tags, fine.  Jobs? Fine.  Even giving them a reaction for free food did nothing.

Then I noticed that most of them were moving to one of their Towns and starving THERE.  I thought "That's weird... they should be able to Trade for food, right?"

But they had no trader position token.  No diplomats or brokers or any of that.  So I tried adding that in.

Also no dice.

So in a fit of frustration I gave them [VARIABLE_POSITIONS:ALL] to see if they were missing some kind of job and if maybe there was something that could be done.

I now have Nephilim wandering over my entire continent until the year 1050!  I'm also wondering if I should try adding this to other races that I'm having problems with and see if they become similarly fecund.

Note: This was all done on an imported map from PerfectWorldDF, with the exact same seeds and all settings except [VARIABLE_POSITIONS:ALL] and the trader the same.  Heres what I added to the end of my entity_nephilim.txt file:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[POSITION:TRADER]
[NAME:mercator:mercatorum]
[SITE]
[NUMBER:AS_NEEDED]
[RESPONSIBILITY:ACCOUNTING]
[RESPONSIBILITY:ESTABLISH_COLONY_TRADE_AGREEMENTS]
[RESPONSIBILITY:TRADE]
[APPOINTED_BY:LEADER]
[DO_NOT_CULL]
[VARIABLE_POSITIONS:ALL]


[Jeoshua]

Also, Deep Spiders are coming up from the depths to attack human cities in Legends mode.  Viciously.

Removing [LARGE_ROAMING] will stop this from happening, as that tag makes creatures relocate to different areas... and usually not underground ones.  Plus, roaming doesn't make alot of sense for an [AMBUSH_PREDATOR]

According to the Wiki, it makes them spawn above ground.

And it appears to be a problem with more than just this one creature, in just this one mod.  I'm currently going through my raws to make sure that no cave critters have this tag.

Done with that now.  Let me tell you, after removing [LARGE_ROAMING] from all creatures that lived at a depth of 2 or greater, and no above ground biomes, things are looking much more sane in Legends mode.  No more floating head attacks on towns, and there are at least twice as many historical entities.  Those critters with [BIOME:SUBTERRANEAN_CHASM] still appear in caves near the surface, too.

[narhiril]

Now, I don't know if this matters alot but I discovered something interesting when trying to get Nephilim to survive.  I changed their size and age to the values you said will be in the next version, and that helped a bit.  The survived until the year 300 before dying off instead of the year 50 (I'm genning a very harsh world).

So I tried giving them better armor and some reactions to create various metals and such and so forth.

Didn't help.

Then I looked at what was going on in LegendsViewer, and I found that nearly every Nephilim was starving to death.  I searched for some way to make them not do so, but I simply could not.  The farming tags, fine.  Jobs? Fine.  Even giving them a reaction for free food did nothing.

Then I noticed that most of them were moving to one of their Towns and starving THERE.  I thought "That's weird... they should be able to Trade for food, right?"

But they had no trader position token.  No diplomats or brokers or any of that.  So I tried adding that in.

Also no dice.

So in a fit of frustration I gave them [VARIABLE_POSITIONS:ALL] to see if they were missing some kind of job and if maybe there was something that could be done.

I now have Nephilim wandering over my entire continent until the year 1050!  I'm also wondering if I should try adding this to other races that I'm having problems with and see if they become similarly fecund.

Note: This was all done on an imported map from PerfectWorldDF, with the exact same seeds and all settings except [VARIABLE_POSITIONS:ALL] and the trader the same.  Heres what I added to the end of my entity_nephilim.txt file:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[POSITION:TRADER]
[NAME:mercator:mercatorum]
[SITE]
[NUMBER:AS_NEEDED]
[RESPONSIBILITY:ACCOUNTING]
[RESPONSIBILITY:ESTABLISH_COLONY_TRADE_AGREEMENTS]
[RESPONSIBILITY:TRADE]
[APPOINTED_BY:LEADER]
[DO_NOT_CULL]
[VARIABLE_POSITIONS:ALL]


Odd, they shouldn't be needing to trade for food if they can make their own.  Anyways, I'll make the necessary changes.

If there are any other anomalies, please let me know.

[Starmantis]

Woah im getting alot of bugs
The game seems to crash whenever I attack something in adventure mode, also the Meowkin and Nephilim lack "CANOPENDOORS"

[Jeoshua]

Well it's not so much that they couldn't trade, that was just the line of reasoning that made me eventually add the [VARIABLE_POSITIONS:ALL] tag to them, and they immediately became 1000% more robust in worldgen without becoming any harder to kill.

I think it has to do with the fact that with that tag a race will sometimes get randomly generated individuals, like Forced Administrators, to take care of tasks that don't have any other position to fill them.

So it's like an extra source of birth, only with skilled people.  In the case of the Nephilim, since there weren't alot of positions at all, this meant that small hamlets and forts would get random emergency backup when they were very low on people.  Looking through Legends showed me that when a beasty would attack one of their towns, and everyone died, that all of a sudden there were people being linked to unknown jobs, who had no other history, and then eventually get picked as a new leader or general or what-have-you.

I have added the Variable Positions tag to every race which didn't have a full compliment of positions available, and now everyone survives worldgen, with the exception of truly unlucky races that live right next to an unkillable megabeast.

[Crazy Cow]

I've played with this a while and really love it. The Bog Trolls are really tough; I wasn't expecting them, and the thieves got through my single line of cage traps and killed everyone in my 16-man fort. But I really love this mod, you did a great job.

[narhiril]

Woah im getting alot of bugs
The game seems to crash whenever I attack something in adventure mode, also the Meowkin and Nephilim lack "CANOPENDOORS"

The latter is an oversight that I have fixed for the next version.  The former is a problem I haven't heard of before and have been unable to reproduce on my own machine.  Is there anything unusual in your error log?

I've played with this a while and really love it. The Bog Trolls are really tough; I wasn't expecting them, and the thieves got through my single line of cage traps and killed everyone in my 16-man fort. But I really love this mod, you did a great job.

The second year is usually when the bog trolls and lizardmen start to really hit you hard.  If you can survive that, you're golden.  It's best to fight the bog trolls by indirect means (cages, javelins, siege engines, traps, etc) until you get a very well trained and geared military.  They may not have great gear, but they're nearly three times the size of humans.  The lizardmen are only slightly larger than dwarves, so its not as dangerous to fight them head to head.  I am hoping someone can give me some feedback on nephilim and voidwalkers soon, as I haven't had the time to get a fortress far enough to test/adjust their triggers yet.  The voidwalkers require a pretty high population cap (125 or so at least, can't remember).  Anyways, I'm glad you're enjoying it.