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[Sowelu]

Also if you catch a grenade, what else are you supposed to do with it? Blow the fuse out?

I'm pretty sure the normal response is to not even try and catch it in the first place, and instead run like hell.

[freeformschooler]

Also if you catch a grenade, what else are you supposed to do with it? Blow the fuse out?

I'm pretty sure the normal response is to not even try and catch it in the first place, and instead run like hell.

Unless you got an A on the super secret badassness test, in which case you'd be certified to catch it then throw it back.

[Il Palazzo]

I have to agree with Phmcw. The world was ruled with realpolitik back then, just as it is now. Attaching desirable moral values to the pragmatic actions of any given nation is what propaganda is for.

[scriver]

I don't really understand bow that is relevant. Of course they funded/rebuilt Europe for their own reason. How does that change anything?

Yeah Scriver, you fell prey to old Soviet propaganda. Really funny how its still circulating after seventy years, like the serrated back of a German WWI bayonet being for making wounds the doctors couldn't sew up. Total BS, but you still hear it at gun shows.

Surely the Germans learned their superior blade-smithing for the Japanese?
The reason, I think, or at least one of them, is simply that it makes for good stories. That always been the advantage of myth over reality. No matter the context.

[Il Palazzo]

It's relevant, because people tend to view these matters from purely moral perspective, which ends up with either demands to acknowledge one side's moral superiority(as with Urist), or lack thereof(as with nine).
I think what should be acknowledged, is that there was no moral side to either WWI or WWII, or any war for that matter. Including the Cold War. Virtually nobody ever joins any war because it's a morally right thing to do(or morally wrong, if you believe in the existence of evil masterminds). Always, and everywhere, nations simply strived to maximize their prosperity and safety, which oftentimes disagreed with their neighbours' attempts to do the same.
You see, it's a different thing to say that "we've rebuilt Western Europe because we're the good guys", and "we've rebuilt W.Europe to weaken the Soviets".

[Urist is dead tome]

It's relevant, because people tend to view these matters from purely moral perspective, which ends up with either demands to acknowledge one side's moral superiority(as with Urist), or lack thereof(as with nine).

I'm sorry but where was this implied?

Vector that's the most naïve reading of WW2 I've ever seen.
It's not that the fact are false, it's that they are taken out of context.

Of course that the story everyone have told after the war.
But the truth is : Nazi Germany was allowed to exist because everyone wanted to use Hitler. The American wanted to weaken Europa, the European wanted to use him against the communists, th catholic used fascism to counter communist atheism and they all helped, regardless of who Hitler was. The exact same kind of error done with Al qaida in Afganistan.

Just look at who financed the Nazi party. (here for instance there are a lot other of course. Or why France did the "drole de guerre" instead of just attacking.)

Ok america intervened when it had to, because else Hitler would have had Europe and Russia, and that most likely you were next, but only when you had no choice at all.

And for the aftermath, you had the choice of helping Europe rebuild or let it turn communist, and you still have military bases on  our ground. Do you really think they are charity? Just read De Gaulle's memories. He had a most lucid look on what happened, even if he didn't wrote everything.

They stopped financing the Nazis once they realized what was happening in Germany. Just something you seem to have left out.

[Il Palazzo]

It's the general feel I'm getting from your posts. If I'm wrong and you actually don't think that the USA were the good guys in WWII, then I do apologize.

[Urist is dead tome]

It's the general feel I'm getting from your posts. If I'm wrong and you actually don't think that the USA were the good guys in WWII, then I do apologize.

Frankly its kind of hard not to feel like that. I didn't intend it, though.

[Phmcw]

What happened in Germany was not a problem for anyone (Jew, homosexual and disabled murder). What was a problem was the attack of France and England. And the fact it worked of course.

Mind you, America has been involved in a lot of dirty business, such as the Taliban's rise to power, or Pinochet's. A mass murder isn't much for our governments (not that England, Germany, Russia, china or France are different in this regard).

[Urist is dead tome]

What happened in Germany was not a problem for anyone (Jew, homosexual and disabled murder). What was a problem was the attack of France and England. And the fact it worked of course.

Mind you, America has been involved in a lot of dirty business, such as the Taliban's rise to power, or Pinochet's. A mass murder isn't much for our governments (not that England, Germany, Russia, china or France are different in this regard).

Wasn't the Taliban's rise to power caused by civil war which was an aftereffect of the war with Russia?

[Phmcw]

Yes, but their leaders were imported from Saudi Arabia by the US and they were trained, and made into an army by American as well.

That's the whole problem with Pakistan and Afganistan, you don't know who are your allies and who are your ennemy. You are  fighting poeple that used to be working for you.

[Urist is dead tome]

Yes, but their leaders were imported from Saudi Arabia by the US and they were trained, and made into an army by American as well.

That's the whole problem with Pakistan and Afganistan, you don't know who are your allies and who are your ennemy. You are  fighting poeple that used to be working for you.

Well I guess they burned that bridge for employment.

[Phmcw]

Not really. That's the whole thing : the Pakistani secret services and Army took your side but are basically the same as the Afghan and have strong ties with them. And you're trying to get Afghan war lord to work for you, too but they could betray you at any moment.

[Urist is dead tome]

Not really. That's the whole thing : the Pakistani secret services and Army took your side but are basically the same as the Afghan and have strong ties with them. And you're trying to get Afghan war lord to work for you, too but they could betray you at any moment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadpan

[Lysabild]

I am not anti-american, but I am damn fucking sick about nationalist americans and their fucking cavalry attitude. Europa is happy for your support, but it's not like we've not been through worse.

Why are all the posetive things I said and the Thank you forgotten? I was bashing the ultra nationalistic idea of America saving the world, not everyday americans and I am not saying they didn't fight and support, I said thanks multiple times along my post.

Also, in wars theres the Thirty years war, for Danish people theres Medieval England where an english king did what Hitler did with jews just much more effectively, the English king killed one fifth of his own population, for being danish. Then theres the non-war shit we've survived like the plague and other epidemics.

Also, maybe I misunderstood his "unfuck themselves" comment, but it came at me like it was everyone europeans fault. I am thankful America joined, although sad they had to play cavalry at it and wait it out. I'm thankful they invested in Europa and I'm thankful for a lot of their medical and technological achievements(Military ones not included.) I am not any less tired of American nationalists on the net and I just boiled a bit over at that moment, hence why I added that it felt good getting out.

Also, yeah Scriver you're close to right, I'm pan-baltoscandia, but not in a stupid way. I have no illusion that we did anything greater than what any other people would've done, had it been a dane, swede, brit or a russian who'd spout ultra nationalistic praise of their heroism I'd have given the same resort.

This post is really messy. I suck at forums.

It's relevant, because people tend to view these matters from purely moral perspective, which ends up with either demands to acknowledge one side's moral superiority(as with Urist), or lack thereof(as with nine).

It was not about morality in my post at all, it was about USA taking glory and demanding respect for "saving our incompetent asses" as it is preached time and again on the internet.


Also, reminds me, yes I know America isn't a united country like many small European states, America is huge and the many states are quite seperated and are obviously very different, however you're still one state. I also don't use North America like you proposed it's use.

Eitherway my need was to say that America is not Superman of the world, not that it isn't filled with great people too. Huge fan of George Carlin and I talk to a lot of Americans on the net that I do like and I am a shitton happy that they helped in the war and that they lived and died to free us from nazi rule cuz I'd have been dead being gayish and all. They're still not the single fantastic saviors of the world I'm tired of hearing the preaching off.


Think I covered it all, since I was apparently very misunderstood here.