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[scriver]

I am not completely sure, but I seem to recall something about Finland having the best fortified border in all of Europe of the time? And that as such, trying to invade it was a move that would cost Russia a whole lot even if it had actually been competent. I can't remember where I got this from, though, so take it with a bit of salt.
And yeah, they also got far lesser than the amount of territory they wanted.

And also, in addition to what has been said about America so far, I'd like to repeat the point Strife said earlier in this thread: Though the extent of the impact USA had on the war might be debated, it's biggest help came after the war. They practically build back Europe from ruins, or in Sweden's case, from unmodern-ity. Both structurally and economy-wise, too. There's no getting around this.

I also enjoyed the irony of Nine bashing American nationalism, when he has shown himself to clearly suffer from Danish such, and even expressed a small amount of pan-Scandinavian sentiment.

[Urist is dead tome]

I am not completely sure, but I seem to recall something about Finland having the best fortified border in all of Europe of the time? And that as such, trying to invade it was a move that would cost Russia a whole lot even if it had actually been competent. I can't remember where I got this from, though, so take it with a bit of salt.
And yeah, they also got far lesser than the amount of territory they wanted.

And also, in addition to what has been said about America so far, I'd like to repeat the point Strife said earlier in this thread: Though the extent of the impact USA had on the war might be debated, it's biggest help came after the war. They practically build back Europe from ruins, or in Sweden's case, from unmodern-ity. Both structurally and economy-wise, too. There's no getting around this.

I also enjoyed the irony of Nine bashing American nationalism, when he has shown himself to clearly suffer from Danish such, and even expressed a small amount of pan-Scandinavian sentiment.

I would say that Finland was built from "unmodern-ity" also because of the scorched earth policy that the Germans employed.

In conclusion: You can bash modern America all you want, in fact, I would agree with a lot of it, we are in a bad way right now, but you would just be forgetting your history classes if you think that America did no help to anyone as Youtube posters commonly proclaim.

[Digital Hellhound]

I am not completely sure, but I seem to recall something about Finland having the best fortified border in all of Europe of the time? And that as such, trying to invade it was a move that would cost Russia a whole lot even if it had actually been competent. I can't remember where I got this from, though, so take it with a bit of salt.
And yeah, they also got far lesser than the amount of territory they wanted.

I rather doubt that. We 'won' the Winter War due to the incompetence and inexperience of Soviet commanders and troops, great use of terrain and the fact that the Soviet motorized forces were the worst choice possible against a forest-filled country with few good roads and, of course, finnish 'sisu'. There were fortifications, but I don't think they played that big a part.

Also, Urist, Finland didn't actually get help from the US due to Soviet pressure. We did have an economic pact with them instead, though. The same goes for most of Eastern Europe which were just Soviet satellites.

[Urist is dead tome]

I rather doubt that. We 'won' the Winter War due to the incompetence and inexperience of Soviet commanders and troops, great use of terrain and the fact that the Soviet motorized forces were the worst choice possible against a forest-filled country with few good roads and, of course, finnish 'sisu'. There were fortifications, but I don't think they played that big a part.

Also, Urist, Finland didn't actually get help from the US due to Soviet pressure. We did have an economic pact with them instead, though. The same goes for most of Eastern Europe which were just Soviet satellites.

Hm... Duly noted!

And frankly we can't forget that for most of the Winter War the Russians didn't have winter camouflage.

Sisu eh? My Grandfather (a Finn), owned a air parts company called Sisu. They had mugs with a caricature of his face on it, called them "ugly mugs".

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

Well, the fact that Finn's are psycho nutjobs in the vein of beserker picts when it comes to war doesnt help the russians at all.  The Finn's were terrifyng to them.  Finn's are badass.

(Descendant of psycho nuthob beserker scottish pict tips his hat).

Its so awesome that Vector can answer Nine's post so well and start this conversation. If I hadnt decided to erase my post, it would have just been a nasty flame war.  Sigh, itsa long road, but I am trying to be less "angry retort" and more "respectful disagreement."

baby steps

Also, someone mentioned how the US really didnt do anything i the western theater till alte in the war after the battle of (st peterburg i think they said).  But, Russia's big chance to push back came after the failed German invasion, where they literally ran out of gas something like 17 miles from Moscow?  From early on, the allies (read US) were ripping up Hitlers oil supplies in the middle east, freeing North Africa and other areas in the process (lets not get into what happened there afterwards at this pint).  Then they moved on and removed a crippled Italy.  While Italy wasnt a major threat anymore (thanks to the Bristish- basicly sinking the entire Italian fleet in port and empty cuz they were all ashore partying- with only a few ships), it paved the way for resources to get into Turkey and head north into Russia.  Germany was only beaten because the US and Russia worked as allies together in the western theater.  Alone, Hitler would have won in my opinion.  How long he held onto it is another debate.

[Urist is dead tome]

Well, the fact that Finn's are psycho nutjobs in the vein of beserker picts when it comes to war doesnt help the russians at all.  The Finn's were terrifyng to them.  Finn's are badass.

(Descendant of psycho nuthob beserker scottish pict tips his hat).

Its so awesome that Vector can answer Nine's post so well and start this conversation. If I hadnt decided to erase my post, it would have just been a nasty flame war.  Sigh, itsa long road, but I am trying to be less "angry retort" and more "respectful disagreement."

baby steps

Same here. Except now I just read about barbells. I feel like a loser.

[Vector]

Aww, you guys <3

[Nikov]

And *cough* the engineless tanks being rolled off the production line 

Engines are expensive comrade! And if we do not have engine, we do not need fuel! And if we do not have engine, we do not need driver! Or transmission! Tank cannot catch fire when Fascist Invader shoots fuel tank! Truely, engineless tank is marvel of Soviet engineering!

But Comrade Commissar, how do we move it?

PUSH HARDER DEFEATIST COWARD!

In all seriousness quite a few countries did things like this. Germany had a number of surplus or salvaged tank turrets built into concrete bunkers and I read an account from the Siege of Memel that German troops were pushing a Panzer II in and out of a covered hide for a few days after its engine went out because even in late 1944, the 20mm autocannon was more than enough to stop infantry attacks.

Back on the subject we've derailed to, IIRC Germany didn't retreat through Finland and the German scorched earth policy, lets be honest, was first used by Russia. As the Axis advanced, the Soviets put things to the torch, took all war materials east, and even dismantled whole factories.

Secondly the best fortified borders as of 1939-40 was eastern France, followed by Belgium (excellent fortresses and the still-effective today "water line" of canals), followed by Czech-German border (the Sudetenland annex conquered those defenses without firing a shot), and Finland had a pretty dismal border defense with one saving grace; camoflague. The myth of Finnland having this AMAZING FORTIFICATION SYSTEM was propaganda used to cover ass after the Soviets were humilitated trying to take it. In truth they had about 14,000 cubic meters of concrete in a little over a hundred bunkers, which is about as much concrete as they put into an opera house. Unreinforced concrete, for that matter.

And lastly I think Lend-Lease and its war-winning effect can't be understated. Two-thirds of Soviet trucks were US-built, and the best in their class on the Eastern front for either side. Trucks seem like a pretty minor element until you consider that Soviet mass without maneuver is how they had pockets of 300,000 soldiers gobbled up at a time in 1941. And looking past just trucks, they had 2000 foreign-built locamotives compared to 98 domestic locomitives produced during the war. Soviet strategic and operational transport was dominated by US-produced vehicles, without which they would have been reduced to pack horses and marching as the Germans frequently were.

[Zrk2]

So this leaves me unopposed as the forums resident jerk? HAHA! Scrubs.

Anyway, remember that scene from band of brothers near the end where all the nazi prisoners are being marched down the highway as the America trucks drive past them? The line from the on guy that bitches them out? Yeah, that was pretty much how the USA helped out. MAss production FTW.

[Urist is dead tome]

Back on the subject we've derailed to, IIRC Germany didn't retreat through Finland and the German scorched earth policy, lets be honest, was first used by Russia. As the Axis advanced, the Soviets put things to the torch, took all war materials east, and even dismantled whole factories.

It seems that both the Germans and the Russians had a scorched-earth policy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Finland_during_World_War_II#Lapland_War

EDIT: Sources not cited, take it with a grain of salt.

[scriver]

@DigitalHellhound, Nikov
I used the term "fortification" in a very loose way, "war preparedness" would serve equally good as a blanket term... But yes, what you say makes sense, and as I have no base for this (or supported it to begin with, it was just something I remembered having heard somewhere), I will not hold on to it.

[Sowelu]

My finnish ex-girlfriend had a grandfather who caught a Russian grenade and threw it back...

Yeah, they were badasses.

[Nikov]

I think I may have heard of the Lapland War before, but it didn't come to mind. But yeah, no denying the Germans didn't rip up railroad lines as they withdrew on the last train. I was simply noting neither side was unique in the practice. I think Russia invented it fighting the Crimean Tartars or the Swedes or something under Peter the Great, setting grass wildfires so enemy cavalry had nothing to eat.

Yeah Scriver, you fell prey to old Soviet propaganda. Really funny how its still circulating after seventy years, like the serrated back of a German WWI bayonet being for making wounds the doctors couldn't sew up. Total BS, but you still hear it at gun shows.

Also if you catch a grenade, what else are you supposed to do with it? Blow the fuse out?

[nenjin]

What does my support or lack thereof for OIF have to do with drone strikes in Pakistan?

Well, let's start with which was it? Support or lack thereof? Is this the part where you tell me you always thought OIF and unilateral action was a bad idea?

[Phmcw]

Vector that's the most naïve reading of WW2 I've ever seen.
It's not that the fact are false, it's that they are taken out of context.

Of course that the story everyone have told after the war.
But the truth is : Nazi Germany was allowed to exist because everyone wanted to use Hitler. The American wanted to weaken Europa, the European wanted to use him against the communists, th catholic used fascism to counter communist atheism and they all helped, regardless of who Hitler was. The exact same kind of error done with Al qaida in Afganistan.

Just look at who financed the Nazi party. (here for instance there are a lot other of course. Or why France did the "drole de guerre" instead of just attacking.)

Ok america intervened when it had to, because else Hitler would have had Europe and Russia, and that most likely you were next, but only when you had no choice at all.

And for the aftermath, you had the choice of helping Europe rebuild or let it turn communist, and you still have military bases on  our ground. Do you really think they are charity? Just read De Gaulle's memories. He had a most lucid look on what happened, even if he didn't wrote everything.