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[Gloster]

Since it is well established that dwarfs require some sleeping comfort (No lay pewter beds for me, thank you, Urist.), why are there no sheets, blankets, pillows etc.?
Especially since it is now possible to efficiently farm birds.

My vision: all bedclothes are essentially textile works and so should be manufactured at the clothiers shop. The basic material should be cloth, plus some stuffing - ideally feathers (produced by slaughtering birds, perhaps in place of skin? I've never found the chicken leather armor particularly convincing), but dry grass (planned anyway as animal fodder, if I recall correctly) could serve as a suitable cheap substitute.

Sheets (made of cloth), blankets (made of 2 units of cloth, perhaps?), pillows (cloth + stuffing), duvets (2x cloth, 3x stuffing).
Sleeping in a bed with no bedclothes should produce a mildly unpleasant thought and nobles should definitely require luxurious linen.

Masterwork giant cave spider silk duvets with peacock feather stuffing would also make a good trading article, I'd say.

Any ideas or comments?

[de5me7]

the main issue with bed sheets it getting them ready in start up forts. If this is introduced it should be a luxury rather than a necessity for building a bed. Setting up a clothing/stuffing industry requires a semi developed fortress. Most forts get beds set up within the first year. If bedding is required dorfs will be sleeping in the dirt longer.

otherwise i agree

[Gloster]

Agreed, I didn't intend this to be a prerequisite for constructing a bed, merely an accessory and an improvement.
I imagine the order of preference like this: sleeping on the ground (bad) - sleeping in a bare bed (not great) - sleeping in a bed with a blanket (ok; - and getting a simple blanket is basically a "first caravan with cloth bins" thing) - sleeping in a fully equipped bed (awesome)

[Jake]

Agreed, I didn't intend this to be a prerequisite for constructing a bed, merely an accessory and an improvement.
I imagine the order of preference like this: sleeping on the ground (bad) - sleeping in a bare bed (not great) - sleeping in a bed with a blanket (ok; - and getting a simple blanket is basically a "first caravan with cloth bins" thing) - sleeping in a fully equipped bed (awesome)

Alternatively, it doesn't seem unreasonable to have embarking and immigrating dwarves bring a couple of blankets with them, and replace them once they become worn in the same fashion as they do (or should do, once Toady gets around to tackling that particular bug) their clothing.

[Gloster]

Alternatively, it doesn't seem unreasonable to have embarking and immigrating dwarves bring a couple of blankets with them, and replace them once they become worn in the same fashion as they do (or should do, once Toady gets around to tackling that particular bug) their clothing.

Good point. Just embarking with some 5 blankets should solve all the initial problems with the communal bedding, at least until the first mayor migration wave.

[de5me7]

but you will still get raped when the first migration wave of 20+ turns up in the end of 1st/start of 2nd year. Typically i dont have a textile/farming industry until 3rd year or at least the end of the 2nd.

[Jake]

You slightly misunderstood me. Every immigrant should bring at least one blanket with them, on the principle that they must have been sleeping under something on the way. This might cause some problems with stockpiles unless migrants start carrying backpacks for personally owned items around with them until they get their own rooms.

[NW_Kohaku]

This sort of suggestion has occurred multiple times in the past...

The last time it came up, the following point was raised:

I look at a bed as a place to sleep in the first place, one that can later be improved with pillows, mattresses, blankets, bed frames, hammocks, etc. A soft cover is probably more important for a good night's sleep than the bed frame, so it's kind of a backwards approach now.

Basically, rather than making some sort of wooden bed frame and improving it by maybe involving a blanket and a mattress at some point, we should be making mattresses, and improving them with frames at some point.

Maybe you don't start your textile industry until the third year right now (Really?! Why not?!) but it honestly takes next-to-no additional effort to throw down some pig tails next to your quarry bushes by the summer of your first year.  Especially now that all dirt is ready-made to farm.  Those pig tails and rope reeds are just as brewable as the other plants, so there isn't much reason not to grow them, and rope reeds are literally just growing wild all around the local murky pools, anyway.

[Khift]

What if we turned our current 'bed' item into a 'cot', kept it as is, and then made a new bed item that required cloth + material (including metal, I want my solid gold beds dag nabbit) to make and functioned identically to a 'cot' except with higher value?

The best of both worlds, yes?

[Gloster]

You slightly misunderstood me. Every immigrant should bring at least one blanket with them, on the principle that they must have been sleeping under something on the way. This might cause some problems with stockpiles unless migrants start carrying backpacks for personally owned items around with them until they get their own rooms.

You're right, I was sort of aiming at a minimalistic solution.

But still, in the first place - this feature shouldn't add a serious negative penalty to standard bare beds. Normal wooden beds are ok, to a point.


Which sort of brings me to another idea, something like varying levels of expectations the dwarfs have in respect to their living standards. New colonists should be able to put up with some hardships associated with a freshly dug hole in the ground, but their patience should run out after some five years of operation, I'd say.
This could possibly be tied up with the nobility promotions (e.g. Fresh colony: sleeping in a bare bed in a communal bedroom and eating raw plump helmets does not cause seriously bad thoughts; Duchy: unless I get a duvet and a honey duck roast, I'm throwing a tantrum).
It would also open up some possibilities regarding immigration. A legendary jeweler might be more inclined to migrate to a thriving county capable of providing him with luxurious living conditions and conversely might leave if you can't take good care of him. (The emigration idea floated around in the forum.) It would also provide a role for dwarven personalities (is he/she a whiner? how much can he/she put up with, before packing the bags and moving someplace else?)
It could also make dwarfs born in your fortress more valuable and worth developing, since they should be less likely to leave their home and birthplace. 

This would motivate you to run the fortress well (essentially competing for skilled workers) and at the same time put more pressure on you in the later phases. Once I get my fort running, it's very easy to keep all dwarfs ecstatic, as their demands remain constant and my ability to fulfill them goes through the roof.

[Gloster]

Looking at it now, I really think the whole bed issue is closely related to dwarf expectations vs. your abilities to fulfill them.

Why do we have the simplistic wooden beds we do now? Because dwarfs want to sleep somewhere, obviously. Sleeping on stone is not really an improvement over sleeping on floors, so beds must be made of wood. So far, so good and it's clearly an improvement of living conditions. Plus - genuine beds are really complicated and hard to make, with all the necessary materials. So for a group of 7 new migrants, a piece of wood should do. (Also, this idea originates from an earlier phase with a much narrower selection of materials and options.)

But what is lacking is some sort of an improvement curve and the demand for the improvements, in whatever form.

The hierarchy of bedding could go something like this: floor, a heap (just a cloth/leather on the floor), a hammock (thread), a mattress (cloth + stuffing), a bed (mattress + frame) and possibly a bed with independent, replaceable bedclothes, working in a manner similar to clothes on dwarfs (Though that might be too many individual items and hassle).


(I should also probably disclose I like playing sim city style, with no invasions, which likely affects my emphasis.)

[Blade Master Model 42]

What if we turned our current 'bed' item into a 'cot', kept it as is, and then made a new bed item that required cloth + material (including metal, I want my solid gold beds dag nabbit) to make and functioned identically to a 'cot' except with higher value?

The best of both worlds, yes?

I like the idea of a complicated dwarven expectation system based on the nobility level of your fortress, as well as bedclothes wearing out and being replaced by normal clothes (well, except that normal clothes don't get replaced yet... The Great One is working on that, of course).

But for now, as a placeholder, turning beds into cots and making bed frames at carpenter's or mason's shops, or or even forges and combining them with a mattress (Made at a clothier's shop, I suppose).

Also, weaker happy thoughts for sleeping on a cot, and a slightly stronger happy thought than we have now for sleeping on a bed.

[alcohol_dependent]

Yes, I dig this being implemented as something like luxuries or "expectations" for mature forts.

Also, related: tablecloths for dining rooms, as well as use of plates/silverware(steelware?)/goblets/utensils for meals and tools for kitchens like cauldrons/ovens/pots/pans and stills like green glass bottles and so forth, all of which I see as being turned into expectations at a certain level of fortress maturity.

[harborpirate]

I have to agree with the prevailing theme going here in the last several posts. I'd really like to see the options for differentiating basic accommodations versus nice accommodations increase. Bedding would be as good a place as any to start. I like the idea that a piece of leather, cloth, or fur should be the default starting bed. (speaking of which, we need furs in the game).
I think that the idea that a highly skilled laborer like a jeweler would only show up when wealth starts to rise is an extremely valid one, and that expectations of dwarves should be related to their station, job, and the overall wealth of the fortress. (some of which is already in the game)

I'm a player who tends to focus more on the civilian stuff than military stuff as well, so I'd be completely in favor of this as it would add more late game challenges in that area.

[Gloster]

Yeah, definitely fur!

I was thinking about the whole concept and I came to the conclusion the core issue is motivation. Why should I want to improve, advance and promote my fortress? At this point, all I get is annoying nobles. But with coming and leaving workers, I suddenly have to worry about the standing and reputation of my outpost, in order to be able to do high-level stuff.

Also related - I feel dwarfs gain skills too quickly. At least at the highest levels. A legendary bonecarver in 2 years from scratch? C'mon. You should be able to get proficient (not necessarily in the "skill level 5" sense) workers quite readily, but the real apex should be hard to reach, say 20 years of constant craftworking. OR - and here comes the crux of the idea - the masters and legends could be lured to settle down in your fortress if it's really good.
And you can hang a trillion things on this concept - royal commissions for art, students and apprentices wishing to learn from the legends, the planned caravan/rogue/wayfarer travelers coming to see their craft etc. etc. Or simply discussing what type of migrants you need with the liaison (I think I saw this mentioned here somewhere). Offering special rewards to desired migrants? Hiring them? The possibilities are endless.

(The ladder of item quality should also be adjusted to reflect this, with bellow-standard items and maybe a possibility to completely ruin the work in case of inexperienced workers?)