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[Leafsnail]

I'm not convinced that additional strength would help people in the army at all.  I guess it's too much to hope that you could provide evidence showing that people in the army currently run into situation where there strength lets them down regularly...?

Has anyone bothered to point out to Urist that he's derailed his own thread from "Women shouldn't be in the military" to "The military's requirements should be so high no woman recognizable as such can join?"

Hey, he managed to make a point and derail the discussion so much that he ended up refuting the same point a couple of pages later.  Means you aren't stuck in the same argument all the time, I guess.

[Zangi]

So...  Urist and everyone else keeps referencing strength requirements. 

1) Do the infantry we have now require everyone to be able to lift 300 lbs?  Y/N ?

2) What is so significant about 300 lbs? (Alright fine, you don't have to answer, I saw the links.)

http://startingstrength.com/articles/combat_worst_case_whittemore.pdf
http://startingstrength.com/articles/army_weak_long.pdf

3) What portion of the infantry meets your 300 lbs?

4) If not, what is the current weight lifting requirement?

5) So, would you say any different if a woman could also lift 300 lbs as good as any man?  Y/N?



I'm pretty sure you want this requirement on top of the current Endurance needs... cause you know, being exhausted earlier isn't going to help anyone.

[hamburgerfan]

Urist's original standards were too high. For all but the genetically gifted, getting your lifts that high requires multiple years of hard work, and soldiers don't need an elite powerlifting total that much anyway. Squatting your bodyweight for 5 reps, deadlifting 1.5 times your bodyweight for 5 reps, and pressing two thirds of your bodyweight over your head for 5 reps should be a good minimum. With a little work, anyone is capable of achieving this level of strength. You won't be a hulking bodybuilder, but you won't be a weakling either.

[Darvi]

Also, if I get that right, his argument seems to be "women are less likely to be as qualified for the military, so we should ban them entirely" Or have I misunderstood something?

[Il Palazzo]

I like the argument of: if some women can be fit enough to pass the marks required by the military, we should increase requirements to such levels that no woman could possibly pass.
Nice one.

[Duke 2.0]

Also, if I get that right, his argument seems to be "women are less likely to be as qualified for the military, so we should ban them entirely" Or have I misunderstood something?

That seems to be it seeing how this point has been brought up several times with no real reply back on it.

[Urist is dead tome]

I'm not convinced that additional strength would help people in the army at all.  I guess it's too much to hope that you could provide evidence showing that people in the army currently run into situation where there strength lets them down regularly...?

Has anyone bothered to point out to Urist that he's derailed his own thread from "Women shouldn't be in the military" to "The military's requirements should be so high no woman recognizable as such can join?"

Hey, he managed to make a point and derail the discussion so much that he ended up refuting the same point a couple of pages later.  Means you aren't stuck in the same argument all the time, I guess.

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=22596
http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=17306

Seems to me the military isn't strong enough.

Also, if I get that right, his argument seems to be "women are less likely to be as qualified for the military, so we should ban them entirely" Or have I misunderstood something?

That seems to be it seeing how this point has been brought up several times with no real reply back on it.

I never said we should ban women entirely. Ever. You have misunderstood. I clearly stated that idealy we wouldn't need women in the military and I would prefer not having them in. Never banning them entirely would be good.

[Phmcw]

So you don't want women in the military because every infantryman should be a professional weightlifter because eventually it may be useful at some point?

That don't even make sense Urist.

[Urist is dead tome]

So you don't want women in the military because every infantryman should be a professional weightlifter because eventually it may be useful at some point?

That don't even make sense Urist.

Really? You are intentionally taking what I said out of context and hoping its a coherent argument. You know I heard an American got shot, you can leave and make a big deal about that, right?

[Il Palazzo]

I never said we should ban women entirely. Ever. You have misunderstood. I clearly stated that idealy we wouldn't need women in the military and I would prefer not having them in. Never banning them entirely would be good.

The supposed clarity of your statements must've been of the highest grade, considering how it eluded pretty much everybody who responded ever since.

Have some modesty mister.
Oh, and please, stop debunking other people's valid arguments with condescending remarks, if you'd be so kind. Attack the argument, not the man behind it.

[Urist is dead tome]

I never said we should ban women entirely. Ever. You have misunderstood. I clearly stated that idealy we wouldn't need women in the military and I would prefer not having them in. Never banning them entirely would be good.

The supposed clarity of your statements must've been of the highest grade, considering how it eluded pretty much everybody who responded ever since.

Have some modesty mister.
Oh, and please, stop debunking other people's valid arguments with condescending remarks, if you'd be so kind. Attack the argument, not the man behind it.

In this case I would have to admit that I was wrong to attack him personally.

Il Palazzo: King of Reason.

[Phmcw]

I took exactly what you said in context and it doesn't make sense to my feeble stranger communistic anti gun mind.

[Willfor]

For me, the "ideally" is that we wouldn't need a military in the first place. We do not live in an ideal world, and women should be allowed to carry the burden of maintaining civil defense as much as anyone else.

I've read your links, and nowhere does it say that women can't meet or exceed the standards that are in place any more than men can. In fact, those studies don't have any sexist rhetoric in them at all unless I missed it. The problem is not women, the problem is the military culture. The same military culture that is preventing women from going into the infantry in the first place. While changing one, why not change the other?

[Il Palazzo]

Eh, Urist, no brown nosing too, please.

Regarding that weight lifting requirements of yours from earlier - it appears that the US Army would be a very small one indeed:
http://en.beijing2008.cn/spirit/pastgames/records/n214068943.shtml
I don't think the top man qualifies.

[Urist is dead tome]

For me, the "ideally" is that we wouldn't need a military in the first place. We do not live in an ideal world, and women should be allowed to carry the burden of maintaining civil defense as much as anyone else.

I've read your links, and nowhere does it say that women can't meet or exceed the standards that are in place any more than men can. In fact, those studies don't have any sexist rhetoric in them at all unless I missed it. The problem is not women, the problem is the military culture. The same military culture that is preventing women from going into the infantry in the first place. While changing one, why not change the other?

What I said was referring to the infantry already having standards that are too lax.

Here's a link that has some context with women and weightlifting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_weightlifting

Eh, Urist, no brown nosing too, please.

Regarding that weight lifting requirements of yours from earlier - it appears that the US Army would be a very small one indeed:
http://en.beijing2008.cn/spirit/pastgames/records/n214068943.shtml
I don't think the top man qualifies.

I later posted lower weights.