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Author Topic: Women In The Infantry  (Read 23329 times)

Criptfeind

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Re: Women In The Infantry
« Reply #105 on: April 10, 2011, 11:34:14 pm »

A generation is 20 years about right? I think it is very doable in 60 years.
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Bauglir

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Re: Women In The Infantry
« Reply #106 on: April 10, 2011, 11:34:24 pm »

Actually, the decreased muscle and bone mass is a huge problem. Also women, due to the higher amounts of estrogen would me more emotional, not less.

Except in the women where it's not a problem. They exist, why shouldn't they serve? Estrogen, incidentally, isn't some sort of magic emotion-hormone. Testosterone affects emotions too, as do dozens of others, and the levels vary from person to person. You don't really get emotional problems unless you have them off-balance.
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“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
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At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Neonivek

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Re: Women In The Infantry
« Reply #107 on: April 10, 2011, 11:34:40 pm »

I'd be a bit surprised if it didn't happen AT LEAST within the next two generations.

Anymore then that and I'd go "What the heck Military!?!"
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Women In The Infantry
« Reply #108 on: April 10, 2011, 11:38:48 pm »

Actually, the decreased muscle and bone mass is a huge problem. Also women, due to the higher amounts of estrogen would me more emotional, not less.

Except in the women where it's not a problem. They exist, why shouldn't they serve? Estrogen, incidentally, isn't some sort of magic emotion-hormone. Testosterone affects emotions too, as do dozens of others, and the levels vary from person to person. You don't really get emotional problems unless you have them off-balance.
Although, Estrogen is fairly bad to have off balance compared to other hormones, because excessive amounts of it cause outright dementia.

In any case, plenty of nations have already introduced women into their armed forces in totality without serious issue, and there's no reason why those that have not shouldn't start immediately.
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Strife26

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Re: Women In The Infantry
« Reply #109 on: April 10, 2011, 11:43:12 pm »

Societal differences, active war time environment, leading to the problems that I listed earlier.

Women can already do every job in the army, except combat arms, which is a pretty small minority, in my little private first class opinion.
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Bauglir

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Re: Women In The Infantry
« Reply #110 on: April 10, 2011, 11:44:22 pm »

Actually, the decreased muscle and bone mass is a huge problem. Also women, due to the higher amounts of estrogen would me more emotional, not less.

Except in the women where it's not a problem. They exist, why shouldn't they serve? Estrogen, incidentally, isn't some sort of magic emotion-hormone. Testosterone affects emotions too, as do dozens of others, and the levels vary from person to person. You don't really get emotional problems unless you have them off-balance.
Although, Estrogen is fairly bad to have off balance compared to other hormones, because excessive amounts of it cause outright dementia.
True, if I recall correctly, but I just object to people simplifying stuff like this down to "Oh, estrogen correlates with emotionality", which is what it sounded like. BRAIN CHEMISTRY IS COMPLEX
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Gorjo MacGrymm

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Re: Women In The Infantry
« Reply #111 on: April 10, 2011, 11:51:56 pm »

I'd be a bit surprised if it didn't happen AT LEAST within the next two generations.

Anymore then that and I'd go "What the heck Military!?!"
Well, in defense of the military, they are extremely conservative.  If it currently works, dont screw with it until it doesnt, just incase what you screw with breaks it.  Thats the military mindset so many people seem have a problem with.  But its not personal or sexist or immoral or racist, etc, its just that military screw ups tend to be rather, well, fatal and no one wants to be left holding the "good intentions" bag when their units get wiped out.

As far as timeline, considering how long it took african americans to be assimilated into regualr units, I would say 3 generations is about right.


As far as logistics, most modern militaries allready has women serving side by side with men.  Combat troops make up a small part of the whole miltary apparatus.  Combat support is huge.  There have been logistics for women in place for decades now that are just standard part and parcel of life in the military.  I dont think moving women into combat roles will effect logictics much at all.

Now we must devise a way of determining which men and women would serve with honor and respect for one another, and which would end up doing crap like those officers. And it must include magma.
Its called the UCMJ
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Strife26

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Re: Women In The Infantry
« Reply #112 on: April 10, 2011, 11:55:16 pm »

Believe me, on patrol bases, it's a big deal to have to deal with specific female shower times and tents.
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Gorjo MacGrymm

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Re: Women In The Infantry
« Reply #113 on: April 10, 2011, 11:57:06 pm »

Believe me, on patrol bases, it's a big deal to have to deal with specific female shower times and tents.
I dealth with those issues 20 years ago in the military.  Whats changed?
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Farmerbob

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Re: Women In The Infantry
« Reply #114 on: April 11, 2011, 12:06:58 am »

The simple fact is that there's no real reason to prevent women from from being front line soldiers.  On average, women are smaller, and have less muscle mass.  However, on average they are also cooler under stress.

If a woman can perform the tasks that need to be performed in order to qualify for front line infantry duty, let them.

If the military brass think that witholding women front line soldiers from certain theatres might be appropriate, then let them.

Putting a woman infantry soldier with a rifle in charge of a blockade checkpoint in a middle eastern country is just begging for dead male middle eastern drivers.  While this might be best for the gene pool in the long term, it won't do us any good in the short term.

Actually, the decreased muscle and bone mass is a huge problem. Also women, due to the higher amounts of estrogen would me more emotional, not less.

If the women can meet the physical requirements, then the muscle and bone mass issue is not a problem, obviously.

As for estrogen levels.  I'm sorry but comparing testosterone to estrogen in modern combat where people are shooting at each other with guns is absurd.  Testosterone is more dangerous because it makes men stupidly aggressive if not controlled.  Estrogen doesn't have the effect of making men act like a gorilla when the adrenaline hits.

Given the same level of training, there's absolutely no reason why female soldiers would not be at least as effective as male soldiers.  On the whole they would likely tend to be more cerebral in their tactics, which is just fine considering that most combat these days is performed at range with guns, not up close with clubs.
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Nilocy

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Re: Women In The Infantry
« Reply #115 on: April 11, 2011, 12:09:37 am »

Huh, seems scifi writers were right all along; women make better pilots than men : D

On to infantry, the biggest problem isn't women, its men reacting to women.
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Mechanoid

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Re: Women In The Infantry
« Reply #116 on: April 11, 2011, 12:20:28 am »

On to infantry, the biggest problem isn't women, its men reacting to women.
Exactly this in every "problematic situation" with placing non-white /non-male /non-hetero /foreigner (and probably other descriptors... just wait for "non-humans" to apply. you'll see) persons into the military. This entire situation summed up:
Two students are taking an exam test in a classroom.
The teacher sees the first student looking at the second student's exam, obviously cheating.
The teacher throws out the second student to stop the first student from cheating on a test.

The example displays incompetence of not only the student who is obviously cheating on a test and who should be failed for not only cheating but also for their ignorance, but also the incompetence of the teacher for being unable to punish the first student for cheating and the punishment of the second student for doing absolutely nothing incorrectly; except of course being the target of TWO people's both personal and professional failures.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 12:22:52 am by Mechanoid »
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Heron TSG

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Re: Women In The Infantry
« Reply #117 on: April 11, 2011, 12:24:53 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Well Barbarossa, combat effective isn't just bench press, speed, or flexibility, its a combination of all of those plus more.  Its not designed to make anyone feel bad in anyway, conversely, its the most honest.  Its simple the result of studying what makes effective soldiers after 5000+ years of combat history to draw from.  Like I said before, what the job takes to succeed is what the job takes to succeed.  Military enemies tend to be very unforgiving in combat.
I don't think you got my point. My point is that there are women that are qualified to do anything that the average man can do. We outright require that all men sign up for the draft, and not all of us are half as qualified as some women. I see no downsides to allowing women to join the infantry on both the equality and practicality sides to this. If they're good enough, let them.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Women In The Infantry
« Reply #118 on: April 11, 2011, 01:58:59 am »

We outright require that all men sign up for the draft

Oh snap, I knew I forgot something. I better get to Candia well the getting is good.
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Mindmaker

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Re: Women In The Infantry
« Reply #119 on: April 11, 2011, 02:59:12 am »

*sigh*
Another discussion I missed, due to being in an european timezone.
Posting to watch, I guess.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 03:31:11 am by Mindmaker »
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