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[ishmog]

I know this is not a new problem but I cannot find a definitive answer to the question despite searching the boards and the wiki.

My fortress has two wells, both of which had designated water source squares adjacent to them. One was over a hand-filled cistern, the other from a very large reservoir topped up from a nearby river. They were working just fine for several years. This past winter season (I'm in a biome that freezes) I started getting "Cancels Give Water" and "Cancels Fill Pond" messages with a reason of "No Water Source." Looking at the zones, both showed Water Source (0).

This is not a bucket problem because as soon as the spring thaw came through, the messages stopped and dwarfs were fetching water from ponds and brooks outside.

I started two projects simultaneously which I can think might have caused the problem; one, I emptied and dug out the cistern to provide additional capacity. While doing this, I set the zone next to it to inactive. Two, I started a project to pump from the larger reservoir to another at a higher z-level for trap purposes. I didn't get any further than just digging out the channel over it, though, no pumps were installed and no water pumped out. The capacity appeared to remain full throughout. Moreover, dwarves continued to drink themselves from that well all winter, they just wouldn't fetch from it to give water to wounded or to fill the other cistern once I got it back together.

I've done everything I can think of, deleting and re-creating the activity zones, but for the life of me I can't get it to show anything other than Water Source (0). It has not been long enough for the cistern to be refilled yet, so I can't say for sure that is broken, but I have no idea what is going on with the reservoir well. I have floored over the additional channel I dug over it, to no avail. I've also ensured that it is topped up by opening the flood gate and leaving it. The water beneath the well is 7/7 (it is three z-levels down; on the board it has been suggested that it must be only one down, but the wiki disagrees and besides, as I said this was working fine like that before and dwarves can still drink themselves). I have tried removing the zones entirely, since someone suggested that they are unnecessary for wells, but with or without does not making any difference: dwarves still drink, but won't fetch.

So; any ideas? Anything else to try? I really need to get this figured out before winter comes again or I get sieged and lose my access to external water sources! Oh, and I'm running 0.31.25.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Is the well above ground?

[ishmog]

Sorry, forgot to mention that... no, both are below ground.

[jaxad0127]

Double check using 'k' that they aren't Above Ground. Just because you're underground, doesn't mean that the game considers them so. Any square exposed vertically to the sky will be considered Above Ground.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Double check using 'k' that they aren't Above Ground. Just because you're underground, doesn't mean that the game considers them so. Any square exposed vertically to the sky will be considered Above Ground.

Actually, any tile that has ever been exposed vertically to the sky is Above Ground, and thus freezes with all the rest of the surface.

[AdeleneDawner]

Double check using 'k' that they aren't Above Ground. Just because you're underground, doesn't mean that the game considers them so. Any square exposed vertically to the sky will be considered Above Ground.

Actually, any tile that has ever been exposed vertically to the sky is Above Ground, and thus freezes with all the rest of the surface.

Or even a tile that's been exposed to a tile that's been exposed to the sky. Meaning that if you dig a 1-z hole, roof it over, and then channel out a second z level in the hole, the second z-level will also be above ground even though it's never seen sky.

[Lytha]

I started getting "Cancels Give Water" and "Cancels Fill Pond" messages with a reason of "No Water Source."

Looking at the zones, both showed Water Source (0).

dwarves still drink, but won't fetch.

You have two different issues here, I think (three, actually.)

1. Somewhere in your fortress, at least two dwarves are trapped or confounded to a burrow. They are thirsty and tired, and while one of them fell asleep, the other couldn't access a water source (since they are trapped), and this gives you the "cancels give water/fill pond: no water source" message. You might want to check your burrows, miners, masons and children if they are trapped.

At least, that's the only situation when this message happens to me.


2. Are you dealing with salt water? Salt water is acting strangely if you move it through various z-levels and destroy and rebuild your reservoir. I.e. it may/will become salty again, even though you pumped it and it thus should be clean.

This is what the "water (0)" issue seems to indicate, since you say that the water is still at 7/7.

They will still drink from the well and use the well to water injured dwarves, so that is not really an issue.


3. The main problem is that your dwarves are doomed to actually drink water. Why in Armok's name is that? You obviously have time enough to mess around with reservoirs and other stuff, so you could have a simple farming plot and a still up and running for sure.

Dwarves on booze withdrawal are much slower than they would usually be. They are unhappy, too. So just provide them with some! They will drink the booze and leave the well completely alone - unless they want to give water to thirsty unconcious other dwarves.

[ishmog]

I will check again but there is almost zero chance that either are Above Ground... they are both pretty deep in the fortress, I can't imagine there has ever been any vertical exposure.

I'm not anywhere near an ocean so salt water is not a factor.

My population is approaching 200 so it's not impossible a couple of stumpies are cut off and trapped somewhere, but I hadn't noticed any... I'll check that again as well. The source of the "give water" requests seems pretty clear though, as I had a prisoner (since dead) and two wounded laid up in the hospital. And they are not getting any water, so even if there are trapped/sleeping dwarves involved, the issue is not confined to them.

The main problem is that your dwarves are doomed to actually drink water. Why in Armok's name is that? You obviously have time enough to mess around with reservoirs and other stuff, so you could have a simple farming plot and a still up and running for sure.

Lytha, although that's sort of an ancillary point, I was wondering about it also when I noticed that un-injured dwarves were going to, and drinking from, the well even though they wouldn't draw from it to give to others. I have loads of booze, a good variety, and the largest stockpile is not more than fifteen tiles from the well. So why are thirsty, un-injured dwarves going to drink water when booze is just as close? That's a separate mystery, though. I still need to somehow get water sources working so there is something available for injured/confined dwarves, but I am also curious why I apparently have some teetotallers in my fortress. Is this the beginning of some dwarvish temperance movement?

[blue emu]

Double check using 'k' that they aren't Above Ground. Just because you're underground, doesn't mean that the game considers them so. Any square exposed vertically to the sky will be considered Above Ground.

Actually, any tile that has ever been exposed vertically to the sky is Above Ground, and thus freezes with all the rest of the surface.

Or even a tile that's been exposed to a tile that's been exposed to the sky. Meaning that if you dig a 1-z hole, roof it over, and then channel out a second z level in the hole, the second z-level will also be above ground even though it's never seen sky.

Curiously, if you first roof over an outdoor area, THEN channel out the hole, it will not freeze in the winter. Tested.

[gtmattz]

#1: Wells do NOT need water zones designated, if there is water below them, and when you 'q' over them they say 'active' they are a water zone, no specific designation needed.

#2: If your wells are more than 1 Z level above the actual water level below them, in the winter when the stuff up top freezes your dorfs will see those designated water zones by your wells, then look for water at them, and not see it, even tho the wells themselves are supplied.  This is because water zones only work when water is on the z level directly below and adjacent to the zone tile.

[ishmog]

#1: Wells do NOT need water zones designated, if there is water below them, and when you 'q' over them they say 'active' they are a water zone, no specific designation needed.

#2: If your wells are more than 1 Z level above the actual water level below them, in the winter when the stuff up top freezes your dorfs will see those designated water zones by your wells, then look for water at them, and not see it, even tho the wells themselves are supplied.  This is because water zones only work when water is on the z level directly below and adjacent to the zone tile.

That might be it, then... although I did try removing the zones (and the 'q' indicator does show 'active') entirely and it didn't fix the problem. But perhaps it was because the zone was still designated when everything froze over. I will try leaving them off next winter and see what happens.

Although, curiously, after everything unfroze, despite not having a zone designated by the wells anymore, the water fetchers went outside to start fetching water instead of using the wells, even though the wells are closer. So that brings up another question: even though dwarves will themselves drink from active wells with no water zone designator, will they fetch water for 'give water' or 'fill pond' tasks without any active water zone (even though an active well is available)? Or do they need an active water source zone to fulfill any fetching tasks?

I have enough time I can probably set up an open indoor pond that I can designate as a water source for next winter which sounds like it will fix the problem but then I will never know the answer about whether or not wells will work for fetching unless someone here can tell me.

[Guedez]

Or even a tile that's been exposed to a tile that's been exposed to the sky. Meaning that if you dig a 1-z hole, roof it over, and then channel out a second z level in the hole, the second z-level will also be above ground even though it's never seen sky.

i wish i knew of this before, i would not have made a 11x11x5 hole and only after it's done i would start closing it for underground surface-crop farm

[Lytha]

This sounds more and more like there are pathfinding problems in your fortress. Dwarves should never prefer to drink from a well if there is booze available. Have you got enough barrels so that they can all grab one and drink?

Are there grown trees in some of your corridors, blocking the way? Are the ramps all functional?

[ishmog]

This sounds more and more like there are pathfinding problems in your fortress. Dwarves should never prefer to drink from a well if there is booze available. Have you got enough barrels so that they can all grab one and drink?

Are there grown trees in some of your corridors, blocking the way? Are the ramps all functional?

Perhaps I need more barrels; considering the amount of booze total available compared to the amount of dwarves I should think I would have like four barrels per dwarf, but maybe not. It's not an access issue, they literally have to walk right past the stockpile on the way to the well... and there are hordes of them swarming around the stockpile grabbing food and/or drinking all the time anyway. At any rate, no one seems to be complaining, so perhaps it's just the attractiveness of my fine artesian well water.

[ishmog]

Okay, it's late fall again and everything outside has frozen up. My cistern was completed and refilled successfully over the summer, so both wells showed as Active. No water zones were specifically designated next to either of them; the cistern has a pond zone on it so that it gets filled.

As soon as the freeze came, I started getting "cancels give water/cancels fill pond: no water source" messages again. So, I put a water zone next to the well drawing from the cistern again, and dwarves are able to give water again. Interestingly, at least so far, the "fill pond" messages have also stopped, even though the pond they are drawing from is also the one they are supposed to be filling.

So, on the water thing, here's what I think I know now:

• Dwarves are fine with drinking/cleaning from any active well with water below it at any distance
• Dwarves will not draw water for give water or fill pond jobs from a well that does not have a water source zone adjacent to it
• Water source zones are not valid unless water is within one z-level of the source

So, if you hope to use a well as a water source, the water level has to be within one z-level of the well itself. This is only a factor if you need to use it for filling/fetching purposes, however. Otherwise, gtmattz appears to be correct that a zone does not need to be designated for a well to be used. However, as my primary need for wells and water is for give water/fill pond activities, as a practical matter I think I do need the water source zones in addition to and adjacent to the well for it to be of any real use. However, because my deep well does not have water within one z-level of it, but only three or four down, it will never be a valid water source. So, I should just make a larger cistern and make sure it's topped up each summer.

Does that sound right to everyone?