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[Chandos]

Disclaimer: I'm new to this forum so go easy on me. My skill is not in coding or art. I just love writing, world building, and thinking on game mechanics. The reason for this post is that I've got some ideas for a game concept that I have been trying to put into some sort of structure, and I am hoping the bright minds here can help me build up on my initial ideas with their suggestions.

Idea: A strategy game set in the World of Darkness (or similar setting), where the player runs an entire clan of vampires, within a Camarilla-like society, maybe as a Methuselah/Antediluvian/Elder, etc. It could start from the 3rd generation and go on all the way to Gehenna. The strategic elements could include politics and power struggles with other clans, influencing the mortal world and their politics, avoiding extermination at the hands of other groups (inquisition!), interacting with other power bases (mages, werewolves, etc), intra-clan power jockeying, etc. The game could play similar to EU series, or maybe even X-Com (with random or triggered actionable events popping up now and then on the strategic map).

The victory conditions could be similar to Civ: diplomatic, military, highest score, etc. And some unique goals too maybe: enslaving all mortals, rebuilding Carthage, reversing the curse of Caine, etc.

I would write more but I need sleep. I would appreciate if you could tell me what your gut reaction to the idea is, whether you know any projects like this, any suggestions and venues of expansion you can think of, and whether you would like to/know someone who would like to turn this into a project.

Also, if you read this and find yourself inspired and want to work on it independently, you have my blessings. I would be happy to be involved somehow, but I'd be happy enough if somebody made something of it without me being involved too.

Cheers
C

P.S. Another question: if I want to build this game myself, how should I go about it? Should I learn C++? How far can one go with Gamemaker? How about Unity 3D? I have some past coding experience (mostly SQL and ABAP for ERP applications), so I know my way around loops and conditional statements, but I've never worked on anything like a game.

[Levi]

That would probably be a ridiculous amount of fun.   

I've been kind of hoping that this is what ccp is currently working on.  http://www.ccpgames.com/en/products/world-of-darkness.aspx

[Chandos]

That would probably be a ridiculous amount of fun.   

I've been kind of hoping that this is what ccp is currently working on.  http://www.ccpgames.com/en/products/world-of-darkness.aspx

A MMOG in WoD... hmm... I wanna feel optimistic about this, but the previous two vampire games (redemption and bloodlines) were kinda not what they could have been.

Anyhow, I was thinking more along the lines of a single player strategy experience. I wonder if it could be developed as a mod for any existing games...

[Neonivek]

For a second there I thought you were going to make a strategy game based off of playing the humans...

Which to me would be a LOT more interesting in concept given that it is a strategy game based around being horribly horribly outmatched. Given the material of the Second edition Hunters (or nWoD Hunters) I can't say there is a limitation on possible upgrades, skills, and abilities for them to draw upon.

Anyhow, how are you thinking of incorperating the other supernaturals into this? Or are you going to play this like the other WoD games and pretend they don't even exist (Though Bloodlines does make a few subtle references)?

[Supermikhail]

As far as concerns go, if you permit a person whose experience with WoD pretty much solely consists of inconsistently following about 1 and a half let's plays - wouldn't it be unnecessarily hard to adapt an RPG system into a strategy. I mean, as I see it, each vampire clan would represent a single unit type, barring heroes. Also, wouldn't it be unbalanced if you started with the strongest units and down the line your reinforcements became weaker and weaker? Also also, how about the day-night cycle and such sweeping progression through the ages, as suggested? I mean, inability to face daylight is pretty much the biggest weakness of vampires, and their distinguishing trait. Yeah, it could be fun, if the developer went though hell, or had a genius idea.

[Chandos]

For a second there I thought you were going to make a strategy game based off of playing the humans...

Which to me would be a LOT more interesting in concept given that it is a strategy game based around being horribly horribly outmatched. Given the material of the Second edition Hunters (or nWoD Hunters) I can't say there is a limitation on possible upgrades, skills, and abilities for them to draw upon.

Anyhow, how are you thinking of incorperating the other supernaturals into this? Or are you going to play this like the other WoD games and pretend they don't even exist (Though Bloodlines does make a few subtle references)?

I'm not a big fan of nWoD for its heavy dumbing down of the content (all magic comes from Atlantis? seriously?), but in any case I felt the Vampire clan idea would make a more compelling story. For one thing, the typical immortal leader in strategy games (as in Civ, EU, etc where you lead a nation through centuries) can literally be immortal for once. As for other supernaturals, in oWoD they were never meant to play together. They were mainly there to provide color for each other's campaigns. Same idea here: they could be incorporated into the game as random or triggered events every now and then, being responsible for behind the scenes stuff (i.e. Salubri just got pwned by a group of mages).

As far as concerns go, if you permit a person whose experience with WoD pretty much solely consists of inconsistently following about 1 and a half let's plays - wouldn't it be unnecessarily hard to adapt an RPG system into a strategy. I mean, as I see it, each vampire clan would represent a single unit type, barring heroes.

Not necessarily hard. I mean, the idea is to borrow the story and theme of WoD, not so much the game mechanics. The game would be more about macro level politics than what level of Celerity a character's got. 

Also, wouldn't it be unbalanced if you started with the strongest units and down the line your reinforcements became weaker and weaker? Also also, how about the day-night cycle and such sweeping progression through the ages, as suggested? I mean, inability to face daylight is pretty much the biggest weakness of vampires, and their distinguishing trait. Yeah, it could be fun, if the developer went though hell, or had a genius idea.

The blood gets thinner indeed, but it gets thinner for all the other clans too. Time is not an ally to anybody in WoD really (maybe except Technocracy), things get progressively worse for everyone until it all blows up in some version of Armageddon, so it's possible to keep the playing field level. As for day/night cycles, I imagined every tick of the game clock would be days or months, if not decades (or changing over time a la Civ turns), so that might not even factor in at all.

[Neonivek]

all magic comes from Atlantis? seriously?

It was more that Atlantis was a special epicenter of magic at one time where you were guarenteed to develop magic allowing a real magic based society to develop. The real source of magic is the connection to the supernal realms. Hense why mages developed all over the world and not just in Atlantis. Magic would have developed on its own without Atlantis but severely diminished.

The Silver Ladder did make it nearly impossible to learn magic, but that is why they built the towers to bridge the gap.

MIND you, I am not going to argue that everything nWoD did was great. Heck I prefer the old Hunters a LOT more (and I am sad they arn't in the New World of Darkness in anyway) but I just recognise that if I made a strategy game I'd probably use the New World of Darkness's Hunters.

-----------------------

Anyhow Human and Ghoul assistance could be important. Remember any animal ghoulified is super powered.

Don't forget that Werewolves have the ability to satiate Vampires no matter their blood rating.

Hmmm maybe there should be "Leaders" in your game based on their blood rating. The greater their blood rating the more time they should tend to spend in Torpor.

[Chandos]

OK, I imagine I have to start somewhere about the mechanics, and I've come up with a vague idea on how territorial claim could work (which could in turn form the backbone of other systems). I imagine each and every vampire in the game would have a worth, let's say mojo points. Older vampires are worth more but there are fewer of them. Younger ones are worth less but they are more numerous. Territory ownership could then be decided by the highest total worth of vampires in a territory. If I have 5 Ventrue worth 30 mojo points, and the next guy has 10 Lasombra worth 20 MPs, I get the territory and my strongest vampire gets to be the Prince.

Imagine each clan picking a starting point on the map, which would serve as their homeland/stronghold: i.e. Alamut, Transylvania, etc. This is where their clan leader would be located (I know this is not necessarily so in WoD but bear with me). So let's say your clan leader, being a 3rd generation vampire, is worth 50 MPs and you placed him at Alamut. That vampire (Haqim I suppose) would then create, let's say three other vampires, 4th generation 40MPs each (just making up numbers here). You get to send those new vampires to adjacent territories, or keep them home to increase your MP base. With each subsequent generation (up to 12th), you get to distribute them across the map in a similar fashion.

Ownership of a territory would have to give some kind of bonus too, maybe influence points to influence mortals, who could be used as pawns against other clans. Fun things could happen with this system, such as too many vampires in one territory running the risk of triggering an inquisition. So it'd be about balancing power grab and aggression with the risk of breaking the Masquerade. For instance the Camarilla could then just be a global treaty that puts a cap on MPs allowed in one city, as a maximum safe concentration of vampires. You could still enter a territory despite the treaty, perhaps at the risk of provoking a blood hunt on your vampires.

[Neonivek]

It would be nearly impossible to protect yourself from fellow vampires without humans, spirits, or similar.

[Supermikhail]

I mean, the idea is to borrow the story and theme of WoD, not so much the game mechanics.

It's not so much game mechanics... well, for a game the mechanics are kind of a part of the theme. And even without a game, you kind of can't make a game about anyone and call them vampires. If they are vampires, they have to have certain characteristics, like need to avoid sunlight. Otherwise it's not a game about vampires.

And I thought a big theme of WoD was the struggle against the beast inside oneself. How do you implement that with your proposed scheme? And if these things are going to be left out, how do you expect someone to want to develop a game like this. It's only formally based on a (moderately) popular franchise. After all, that's what developers look for in potential game ideas - how the game is different, what new, original things does it do? Usually a game won't sell well on atmosphere alone, and an atmosphere that isn't new to video-gamers anymore.

So far, I understand, you have another computer version of Risk, with a few tweaks.

[Chandos]

I mean, the idea is to borrow the story and theme of WoD, not so much the game mechanics.

It's not so much game mechanics... well, for a game the mechanics are kind of a part of the theme. And even without a game, you kind of can't make a game about anyone and call them vampires. If they are vampires, they have to have certain characteristics, like need to avoid sunlight. Otherwise it's not a game about vampires.

And I thought a big theme of WoD was the struggle against the beast inside oneself...

I respectfully disagree. By your logic I could say any game that doesn't incorporate scurvy into the game mechanics at individual sailor level is not about naval exploration, and the characters can't be called sailors. Then again in such a game, it is not so much about the day-to-day realities of a sailor's life, but rather about the grand idea of naval exploration.

Same here: It's a game about vampires, that focuses on a different aspect of their existence, which happens to be their ancient and endless struggle for power, and how they prepare themselves for the end times.

How do you implement that with your proposed scheme? And if these things are going to be left out, how do you expect someone to want to develop a game like this. It's only formally based on a (moderately) popular franchise. After all, that's what developers look for in potential game ideas - how the game is different, what new, original things does it do? Usually a game won't sell well on atmosphere alone, and an atmosphere that isn't new to video-gamers anymore.

Perhaps I should have mentioned this at the beginning, I do not expect to make money with this. I mean, can you imagine the copyright licensing costs that would arise? This is a what-if exercise for me, that I might one day actually build and offer to others for free.

So far, I understand, you have another computer version of Risk, with a few tweaks.

Well, when you put it like that... every single strategy game out there can be traced to some board game or another at its core, plus "a few" tweaks. There is great potential for differentiation and adding depth with those tweaks. Think Civilization vs Colonization. Heck, think Civ vs Master of Orion or Master of Magic. Or Starcraft vs Rise of Nations. Or Warlords vs Heroes of Might and Magic. Or Lord of the Realms vs Total War. Same core mechanics more or less, with some tweaks.

[Neonivek]

I don't know. A game about Vampires that doesn't take day into consideration may be more like Sailors without water.

[Chandos]

I don't know. A game about Vampires that doesn't take day into consideration may be more like Sailors without water.

Well, alright... I'll keep an open mind about this, and entertain any possibilities you suggest that can plausibly incorporate day/night cycles into a game that spans thousands of years from beginning to end. How's that?

[Neonivek]

I don't know. A game about Vampires that doesn't take day into consideration may be more like Sailors without water.

Well, alright... I'll keep an open mind about this, and entertain any possibilities you suggest that can plausibly incorporate day/night cycles into a game that spans thousands of years from beginning to end. How's that?

Well what you could do is have status on some characters like "Daywalker" (not for vampires) and their ability is sort of like a stealth ability or assassination ability as they are capable of going past vampires and their ordinary defenses.

Basically treat day as another dimension of play.

Or instead of Nightwalker... what is that term for things that are awake during the day? I know Nocturnal is night... Uhhh... Dinural? no that isn't it...

[Supermikhail]

Shit, somebody actually agrees with me for once.

Er-right. Or, this could go, you know, still without day and night, but all day, and vampires just unable to face the sun, that is, something like unable to go above surface/out of buildings. In this manner, vampires are only able to expand into new territories if there

• are existing human structures
• is some underground natural structure (I don't know if anything besides caves comes into this category, but just to be safe)
• ... Almost forgot - or existing vampire structures

And some shenanigans with traveling.

Also, like I've read about some game in the City building series, day and night could be not literal but implemented with regard for gameplay, that is, depending on the timescale, day could take from a month to ten years to a century to pass. Or it could be simply one turn in the turn-based case. Like, one turn for humans, one turn for vampires. Although, I guess it wouldn't work if clans were their own players.

Fake edit. Diurnal. By one letter.