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[Earthquake Damage]

The use of the expletive without a second thought for its meaning is worse on a cultural level, because it more or less indicates complete acceptance of the reasoning behind it (again, on a cultural level).

I'm pretty sure it just indicates nonspecific contempt, anger, or frustration.  In that context, it has no deeper meaning, regardless of its etymological origins.

[DJ]

Most of the time when I say "F... you!" I do not in fact wish to copulate with the person I'm saying it to.

[Bauglir]

The use of the expletive without a second thought for its meaning is worse on a cultural level, because it more or less indicates complete acceptance of the reasoning behind it (again, on a cultural level).

I'm pretty sure it just indicates nonspecific contempt, anger, or frustration.  In that context, it has no deeper meaning, regardless of its etymological origins.

Yeah, and my point, at least, is that the choice of words for expressing nonspecific contempt, anger, or frustration says something about our culture, along with our choice of how to use them ("bitch" occupies an interesting position, because it has different connotations for men and women). Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I'm not convinced of that.

[Blargityblarg]

Yep, I'd say that 'bitch' is a similar case to using 'gay' as a negative adjective, as discussed in that other thread. Whilst its etymology makes it not-terribly-nice, to say the least, by now it's become clichéd enough to simply be another word that people use without considering the deeper meaning behind.

Fakeedit: Gorram ninjas, saying everything I want to say.

[Vector]

Yeah, and my point, at least, is that the choice of words for expressing nonspecific contempt, anger, or frustration says something about our culture, along with our choice of how to use them ("bitch" occupies an interesting position, because it has different connotations for men and women). Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I'm not convinced of that.

Fine, how about pussy, sissy, girly, effeminate, or any of those other words?  Hell, what about all of the words around "douche?"  "You're awful because you clean vaginas?"  How is that a good insult, unless you're devalorizing female anatomy?

They're all negative.  I can think of only one negative dude-word (not counting prick or dick--I figure that those are kind of equal with c*** and t***), and that's butch--which is only used on women, anyway.  If anyone can think of more, then please, be my guest and prove me wrong.

Most drama is geared towards women. And yeah, I guess since anything that you don't read or watch is completely irrelevant (the world revolves around you, after all) I'll need a list of what you *do* read and watch before I try again.

And there's a world of difference between calling a woman a bitch and writing a goddamned essay about using punishments and rewards to get them to do things on cue.

I'm not saying anything I don't read or watch is completely irrelevant.  I'm saying that I can't speak to it, because it's not within my experience.  My experience with media says that the portrayal of women is overwhelmingly negative.  I rely on my experience, just as you do yours.  If you've got great counter-examples, cool.  I'd love to watch 'em.

This is not some dialogue where I subjugate you.  This is a dialogue where we figure things out together and, hopefully, we both learn things--though I'll admit that I'm feeling kind of defensive because I'm the only woman in this conversation.

*shrug*

Whatever.

Anyway, here's the link.  The creator of Dilbert speaks about why you don't argue with women.

Oh, and I see you one Cosmo and raise you one PUA forum.  I also raise you the Mars and Venus book series, which is basically the most popular series of books on relationships, as well as Ladder Theory and all of fucking Evo Psych.  And all those goddamned articles about how women need to be like-men-but-not-too-much-like-men-in the workplace, and all of those fucking PMS medication ads that emphasize being nice and pretty for your boyfriend--and, hell, all those other ads that say the same thing rather than, what, "You're going to like the way you look" or whatever the catchphrase is for dude-marketed stuff.

Sure, those aren't all animal-training references, but I thought I'd put them in as I remembered them.

Yep, I'd say that 'bitch' is a similar case to using 'gay' as a negative adjective, as discussed in that other thread. Whilst its etymology makes it not-terribly-nice, to say the least, by now it's become clichéd enough to simply be another word that people use without considering the deeper meaning behind.

It hurts.  It isn't simply another word.  Mendacious?  Sure.  That's from the word mendicant, which is a specific kind of beggar.  Everyone knows very well that a bitch is a woman.  There is no male equivalent, just like there's no straight equivalent for gay and no neurotypical equivalent for ass-burger or schizo.

So... no, I disagree.

[Heron TSG]

Most of the time when I say "F... you!" I do not in fact wish to copulate with the person I'm saying it to.

It is possible the term was derived from the Swedish fokka, meaning 'to strike'. You might want to hit them. The Indo-European fuk also means this.

I can't believe that man deleted his own blog post because people were offended. It made sense to me, at least. I didn't agree with all of it, but he has his points.

[Bauglir]

Yeah, and my point, at least, is that the choice of words for expressing nonspecific contempt, anger, or frustration says something about our culture, along with our choice of how to use them ("bitch" occupies an interesting position, because it has different connotations for men and women). Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I'm not convinced of that.

Fine, how about pussy, sissy, girly, effeminate, or any of those other words?  Hell, what about all of the words around "douche?"  "You're awful because you clean vaginas?"  How is that a good insult, unless you're devalorizing female anatomy?

They're all negative.  I can think of only one negative dude-word (not counting prick or dick--I figure that those are kind of equal with c*** and t***), and that's butch--which is only used on women, anyway.  If anyone can think of more, then please, be my guest and prove me wrong.

Well, the main reason I didn't use those words is that I actually don't see them applied to women. It's only considered insulting to associate a man with femininity; when you're talking to a woman, calling her girly would be taken in the same light as saying, "And also, you have a nose!" Bitch is just the main insult I hear applied to both genders that has a different implication in each sense (as contrasted with insults like, say, "shithead"), but on second thought the lack of use is, itself, a difference in usage. Thanks for making me realize that.

Now, I want to be clear, that's not right. Those shouldn't be insults at all, and honestly all the connotations that go with them shouldn't be equated with being a woman. I was just remarking that "bitch", when applied to a woman, implies mostly any woman who isn't acting the way the speaker wants, typically through being overly unemotional or overly emotional (yeah, wrap your mind around that one), at least in my limited experience. When applied to a man, "bitch" implies femininity, which goes right back to the first paragraph; the insult is supposed to be that you're feminine, not any of the other connotations of bitch. Which, I hope, goes back to support my original point (which is that the difference isn't as great as it might appear on the face of it; it's not a difference of principle, but of degree only, at best). It only might seem like there's a great difference, because the use of "bitch" as an expletive is normal and accepted, while "men are as trainable as dogs" is not so much.

[DJ]

I'm not saying anything I don't read or watch is completely irrelevant.  I'm saying that I can't speak to it, because it's not within my experience.  My experience with media says that the portrayal of women is overwhelmingly negative.  I rely on my experience, just as you do yours.  If you've got great counter-examples, cool.  I'd love to watch 'em.

Judging Judy, Murder She Wrote, almost everything on Hallmark.

[fqllve]

Okay, honest time, I really really feel like, for almost all your arguments on this thread have been about grabbing a small (sometimes very small) subset of something and saying that represents it all and also blowing everything up to ridicules proportions.

I have seen those shows, I know what he is talking about. What you said there is simply not true. They are not horrid shrews being abrasive evil people. They are often (BUT NOT ALWAYS!) some what sarcastic, but nothing like you are describing. They also have a very good reason for such, if you were inexplicitly married to some dope… Well, I certainly would not be nearly as nice as they are.

I wasn't trying to say anything about the whole of American television by that, I was just talking specifically about that trope as it appears in dom coms. I don't think it's an absolutely horrible thing that has to be excised immediately lest the whole of our society fall. I just think it's lazy, bland writing and looking at more modern examples of the trope it presents an image of what we think. I don't think that image is accurate but it does present one.

I don't think the wives were abrasive and evil either but I did think they were smug know-it-alls. Especially the wife from King of Queens. I dunno if I'd be any nicer either but I wouldn't put myself in that situation. Half the time it seems like the wife detests her husband, the man she ostensibly loves. I can't sympathize with someone like that, though I do recognize that's only my opinion.

Also, I'd like to say that I didn't intend any of my arguments about specific things to be applicable on a wider scale. I was just complaining about those specific things.

[Willfor]

I'm not saying anything I don't read or watch is completely irrelevant.  I'm saying that I can't speak to it, because it's not within my experience.  My experience with media says that the portrayal of women is overwhelmingly negative.  I rely on my experience, just as you do yours.  If you've got great counter-examples, cool.  I'd love to watch 'em.

Judging Judy, Murder She Wrote, almost everything on Hallmark.

I can only speak for Murder She Wrote, and confess my doubts that Hallmark could possibly have strong female characters who Vector would like to see.

Houlihan from M*A*S*H, though. If we want recent examples, I've seen a couple of episodes of The Good Wife, and I can't see any problems with the female characters there.

I, myself, try to write strong female characters, at least as best I can. Not all of my female characters are strong, but the majority seem to be. Though I find it helps if I write them as characters first, and genders distant third. Except my current pet fantasy world is in the midst of a sexual revolution with the majority of my female characters being on the cutting edge of a violently emerging feminist movement bent on removing bias against them in the sections of the world that discriminate against them.

It's not that men can't write women, it's that we are either perpetuating our myths of women, perpetuating our fantasies of women, or not motivated enough to take on a female perspective while writing.

Taken a different way to the broader issue:

It's not that X can't write Y, it's that we are either perpetuating our myths of Y, perpetuating our fantasies of Y, or not motivated enough to take on a Y perspective while writing.

Edit: There was supposed to be a stint after the last two statements that would imply that it is possible if a person actually tries. It somehow got left out.

[Kadzar]

Shows with strong female leads that I've personally watched and enjoyed: Parks & Recreation, 30 Rock, Gilmore Girls, Weeds, Reba, Veronica Mars.

[Lysabild]

The danish word for bitch, Kælling(Well, directly translated it's tæve, but everyday use compared it's kælling.) Have been my nickname as a guy for years, and it's original meaning was posetive but became negative later on. So yeah my understanding of Bitch isn't really that negative honestly and it's certainly not only women it hits.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Or well, it's discussed really, some say it's come for Kær ling meaning dear one, other say it comes from Karl which oldnorse for man/husband and meant old burned out man originally.

Edit: I guess my point is that I don't believe in bad words, only bad thoughts.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Yep, I'd say that 'bitch' is a similar case to using 'gay' as a negative adjective, as discussed in that other thread. Whilst its etymology makes it not-terribly-nice, to say the least, by now it's become clichéd enough to simply be another word that people use without considering the deeper meaning behind.

It hurts.  It isn't simply another word.  Mendacious?  Sure.  That's from the word mendicant, which is a specific kind of beggar.  Everyone knows very well that a bitch is a woman.  There is no male equivalent, just like there's no straight equivalent for gay and no neurotypical equivalent for ass-burger or schizo.

I will state for the record that I have never heard a woman be compared to an ape.

[Vector]

*shrug*

I've been called a pig before.

[Heron TSG]

*shrug*

I've been called a pig before.

Pig is a pretty common derogatory term applied to men, now that I think about it. It's not often I hear of a woman being called a pig, and when that happens it's generally far more offensive. I guess it's just applied to men so often that we tend to brush it off as people being sexist. I dunno.

Has anyone here ever been called a lizard, by any chance?