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Author Topic: Diversity In Media  (Read 8679 times)

RedKing

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Re: Diversity In Media
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2011, 09:08:40 am »

Vector, I agree with you in principle, and I certainly see your argument. If I understand you correctly, then it's somewhat akin to the debate within the gay community between those who want to downplay their sexuality and those who want to march in pride parades in assless chaps. The former would say, "You're making us all look like freaks." whlie the latter would say, "No, we're making us visible."

And oddly enough, I agree with the latter.

Where I have a problem is when history gets completely mucked up in the name of diversity, or some minority-driven agenda. The examples I constantly think of come from when I was still in the archaeology field. You get Afrocentric archaeologists and historians who will insist that media depictions of ancient Egypt are all racist because they should really be depicted as black Nubians, when the data just isn't there. With the except of a couple of late dynasties who were Nubian, Egypt's rulers were Semitic. And Cleopatra wasn't even ethnically Egyptian, she was an inbred Greek descendant of Ptolemy, one of Alexander's generals.

So with your hypothetical knight....yeah, he probably should be a white male because 99.9% of knights were. That's one of the things that makes Joan d'Arc so remarkable.
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Something Evil

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Re: Diversity In Media
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2011, 09:16:15 am »

Posting to remember to read this when I'm done with having my foxgirl kill dragons while riding on a flying stingray.
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Vector

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Re: Diversity In Media
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2011, 10:24:53 am »

So with your hypothetical knight....yeah, he probably should be a white male because 99.9% of knights were. That's one of the things that makes Joan d'Arc so remarkable.

Man, if it's a King Arthur historical drama, then I really don't give a damn.  If it's going to just be loosely based on ancient times, then I do kind of care.  If they're going to switch around all kinds of stuff and aren't doing their research, then they can do so in a way that leads to an even newer concept.

I'm going to admit that the historical drama case is a kind of difficult one, but it was really just meant to stand for a broader concept.
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RedKing

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Re: Diversity In Media
« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2011, 10:46:17 am »

Yeah, I should have been specific that ahistorical settings are exempt. If it's a fantasy setting, then no problem. Sci-fi, no problem. Modern-day setting (with no historical requirements), no problem.

And I'll warrant you that in some cases, it might be a cart before the horse sort of thing, where the writers make everbody in ancient Rome white with a British accent -- but when someone points out that the female characters exist mostly for sex scenes or objects to be revenged, then they'll claim it's proof they're "historically accurate" (when in fact, ancient Rome was one of the few ancient societies where women could be quite powerful, if not in law and title, then by manipulation of those with law and title).

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scriver

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Re: Diversity In Media
« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2011, 11:57:18 am »

That's rather nonsensical. Women have been able to rise to power (if you can call it that) by manipulating the men in charge in all societies [where they couldn't have official power]. There where nothing special about Rome when it comes to this, except maybe better documentation, as usual.
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ed boy

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Re: Diversity In Media
« Reply #50 on: April 06, 2011, 12:16:16 pm »

I agree that there is a lack of properly implemented diversity in media today, but the way to avoid that in the future is not to call attention to it. If the characteristics of certain characters (females, blacks, etc) are under careful consideration because of that characteristic, then that means that future characters will need to be restricted to certain formulae even more. Complaining that they all follow a certain formula will jest result in the formula being changed, not the formula being abolished.

If you want to see better implemented characters, then you need to be less critical of them. If race and gender do not matter, then you should judge whether these characters are good or not based on their other merits.

I've probably worded the above terribly, but I'm having trouble improving it.
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Vector

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Re: Diversity In Media
« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2011, 12:33:34 pm »

If you want to see better implemented characters, then you need to be less critical of them. If race and gender do not matter, then you should judge whether these characters are good or not based on their other merits.

*sigh*

I wish I could agree with you, because part of my knowledge base says that you are right.  The other part of my knowledge base tells me that ignoring privilege proliferates privilege.  In a society in which we had no stereotypes of drug sellers being black, we could have a token black drug seller and there would be no problem, so long as he was well-developed.  But that isn't the society we live in, and no matter how many times we tell a story of a woman giving up her freedom and agency to marry/subjugate herself to a man well, it is still a problematic narrative.

The point is that in a world where there is only "one possible narrative" for a woman, or whatever else, saying "Okay, start telling a different story, please" does not necessarily mean that everyone will tell the same story.  Why would it?  Rather than "woman must die/have bad things happen or marry man," we can tell "man must die/have bad things happen or marry woman," or we can tell "woman defies ostensible fate and doesn't marry man--nothing bad happens" or "woman is destroyed by idea of fate weighing on her and ends up dying horribly by virtue of the fate, not from its explicit terms" or "woman engages in a narrative where marriage is not involved at all" or "woman is given ultimatum by fate and instead goes on quest to disband ultimatum, and falls in love along the way or not."  Or, hell, even "woman must endure fate or marry woman" or "two women are both screwed over by fate and must decide among themselves who is going to go get married and who is going to die."  Not "man picks which woman dies," "woman picks which woman dies."

There, I've come up with a number of plotlines and I've hardly ever seen any of them produced, despite the critiques of the "woman goes off and gets married" story.  They all even have female main characters.

Ostensibly, yes, there will be only shifting terms as you mentioned, but this is not the point where we say "well, now we critique these people as characters."  When women as a group become characters rather than scenery or props for the male narrative, we can talk.  We don't expect every character of a story to be well-rounded and interesting.  We expect the lead to be interesting, and possibly his cohort.  But there are always side characters who just don't matter as much, and critiquing those roles would be to go against the foundations of literature.  It is still absolutely necessary to contradict the stereotyping inherent in relegating women and minorities to those positions.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Diversity In Media
« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2011, 12:36:41 pm »

Stuff.
More stuff.

Okay, honest time, I really really feel like, for almost all your arguments on this thread have been about grabbing a small (sometimes very small) subset of something and saying that represents it all and also blowing everything up to ridicules proportions.

I have seen those shows, I know what he is talking about. What you said there is simply not true. They are not horrid shrews being abrasive evil people. They are often (BUT NOT ALWAYS!) some what sarcastic, but nothing like you are describing. They also have a very good reason for such, if you were inexplicitly married to some dope… Well, I certainly would not be nearly as nice as they are.

Also a old point for Vector, when you said female leads are ruined for you when they are inevitably saved by a man (and never by a woman, which I feel is quite frankly untrue.) you do realize that TV shows need a new plot every single episode. Any good show will at one point will have the main character in  need of help and saving, it is a good plot and it gives them the ability to show rarely seen sides of them. If it indeed is more often by a man is because such a saving is more poignant when it is done by a love interest.
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Vector

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Re: Diversity In Media
« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2011, 12:39:34 pm »

Also a old point for Vector, when you said female leads are ruined for you when they are inevitably saved by a man (and never by a woman, which I feel is quite frankly untrue.) you do realize that TV shows need a new plot every single episode. Any good show will at one point will have the main character in  need of help and saving, it is a good plot and it gives them the ability to show rarely seen sides of them. If it indeed is more often by a man is because such a saving is more poignant when it is done by a love interest.

It'd be more poignant for a woman to save a man when he needs saving, then, right?  Because love interest.

... Oh wait.

Also, where are my lesbians?
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Criptfeind

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Re: Diversity In Media
« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2011, 12:41:52 pm »

Yup. And it happens all the time.

On lesbians. It happens very very little, because homosexuality is still a hot topic, and it is just easier to avoid it.

Edit: Hell, it happens even when the females are weak little wallflowers, for the wrong reasons almost all the time, but it still happens.
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Vector

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Re: Diversity In Media
« Reply #55 on: April 06, 2011, 12:43:54 pm »

Yup. And it happens all the time.

On lesbians. It happens very very little, because homosexuality is still a hot topic, and it is just easier to avoid it.

Okay, man, I'm just going to say that my media-watching experience is very different from yours for some unknown reason.

Right, exactly--women don't save women, but men save men all the time.  In fact, the latter is the default.  It's so much of a default that one doesn't notice its being a default.  So, again... either it's not about love interests, or we suddenly became okay with gay guys in our media.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Diversity In Media
« Reply #56 on: April 06, 2011, 12:45:43 pm »

Or... That is not what I said at all. I said lesbians (and gay guys) do not happen, nothing about females not saving other females.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 12:48:05 pm by Criptfeind »
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Vector

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Re: Diversity In Media
« Reply #57 on: April 06, 2011, 12:47:32 pm »

Or... That is not what I said at all. I said lesbians (and gay guys) do not happen, nothing about females not saving other females.

All right, let me make this more clear.

Man saves woman = love interest, apparently.
Woman saves man = love interest, apparently.
Man saves man = norm
Woman saves woman = wait, there's multiple women in your show?

So we've got men in the saving role at least twice as often as women, assuming we've got an even gender distribution and so on.  Big freaking assumption.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Diversity In Media
« Reply #58 on: April 06, 2011, 12:50:50 pm »

No. I merely said that it is more poignant as such and thus more normal. And your fourth... Whatever you want to call those is quite simply nothing I said. This putting words in my mouth should stop.

As for the inexplicable difference in our viewing, I will strike that up to one of us not paying full attention.

Or maybe you watch more TV then me, so well I only watch the good shows you watch the good and the bad.
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Vector

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Re: Diversity In Media
« Reply #59 on: April 06, 2011, 12:53:04 pm »

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, and if I am, then I'm sorry about it.

I'll ask someone else to pitch in on this, because I'll admit that I may not be the most unbiased viewer--and I basically don't watch TV because I'm so tired of it.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".
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