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[Vhorthex]

Hello there fellow dorfs!

I've recently jumped back into the DF wagon, with all those sexy fixes and changes, I just had to give it a whirl.

Now, I made a fortress who's access point is done via a surface floor hatch. I then made a little twisting corridor with traps doors.

So finally, early enough to my surprise, a siege of goblins makes it way to my fortress. No biggy, Get the few dorfs on the surface to hide underground and brace themselves.

But... the goblins aren't attacking me. Can attackes break floor hatches? or is this simply unbreakable and they'll never attack unless i 'remove it', or send people to the surface?

Just curious as to how they can breach, if at all. I mean, I don't want to pave them a way inside, my fortress, but i'd like for them to at least try to get in.

I read something that they can bring 'building destroyers', would a floor hatch be considered a building? And if one day they should up with one, he'll just break it down?

Any additional info on sieges is welcomed too!

Thanks

[barconis]

I'm pretty sure a floor hatch will work just like a door -- if you've forbidden it, goblins can't get through by themselves. If they bring along a squad of trolls (who are building destroyers), the trolls should treat the floor hatch like any other door, floodgate, grate or building, and will tear it down. Trolls can't take down constructed walls or floors, but anything that has a 'q' menu is fair game.

If the hatch isn't forbidden, then there's a bug, because goblins will go through unlocked doors just fine. If unlocking the hatch isn't enough to tempt them inside, maybe you need to connect it to a lever and open it for them.

[Necro910]

Hello there fellow dorfs!

I've recently jumped back into the DF wagon, with all those sexy fixes and changes, I just had to give it a whirl.

Now, I made a fortress who's access point is done via a surface floor hatch. I then made a little twisting corridor with traps doors.

So finally, early enough to my surprise, a siege of goblins makes it way to my fortress. No biggy, Get the few dorfs on the surface to hide underground and brace themselves.

But... the goblins aren't attacking me. Can attackes break floor hatches? or is this simply unbreakable and they'll never attack unless i 'remove it', or send people to the surface?

Just curious as to how they can breach, if at all. I mean, I don't want to pave them a way inside, my fortress, but i'd like for them to at least try to get in.

I read something that they can bring 'building destroyers', would a floor hatch be considered a building? And if one day they should up with one, he'll just break it down?

Any additional info on sieges is welcomed too!

Thanks

Depends. Did you lock the door ("Forbidden")? If you did, they can't pick locks like thieves. Only building destroyers can break down hatches.

Also, building destroyers cannot break a hatch from below! Different Z-levels and all 

[Yoink]

Actually, last time I had a siege, I pretty much abandoned the original fort and hid all my dwarves in a large group of tunnels under the river on the map, which was accessible only by one floor hatch, from the goblin's side of the river.
They brought a whole bunch of trolls, and one of them even wandered over to the hatch while his comrades were busy smashing up the other buildings. He just stood there. Looking from the hatch, to the buildings across the river. For ages. He never did smash through it, I dunno why.

[Necro910]

Actually, last time I had a siege, I pretty much abandoned the original fort and hid all my dwarves in a large group of tunnels under the river on the map, which was accessible only by one floor hatch, from the goblin's side of the river.
They brought a whole bunch of trolls, and one of them even wandered over to the hatch while his comrades were busy smashing up the other buildings. He just stood there. Looking from the hatch, to the buildings across the river. For ages. He never did smash through it, I dunno why.

I think he's trolling. 

[Yoink]

Actually, last time I had a siege, I pretty much abandoned the original fort and hid all my dwarves in a large group of tunnels under the river on the map, which was accessible only by one floor hatch, from the goblin's side of the river.
They brought a whole bunch of trolls, and one of them even wandered over to the hatch while his comrades were busy smashing up the other buildings. He just stood there. Looking from the hatch, to the buildings across the river. For ages. He never did smash through it, I dunno why.

I think he's trolling. 

Har, har! Well, we dealt with him in the end...
Remember kids: Never lose your head over the internet, literally -or- metaphorically!

[Necro910]

Actually, last time I had a siege, I pretty much abandoned the original fort and hid all my dwarves in a large group of tunnels under the river on the map, which was accessible only by one floor hatch, from the goblin's side of the river.
They brought a whole bunch of trolls, and one of them even wandered over to the hatch while his comrades were busy smashing up the other buildings. He just stood there. Looking from the hatch, to the buildings across the river. For ages. He never did smash through it, I dunno why.

I think he's trolling. 

Har, har! Well, we dealt with him in the end...
Remember kids: Never lose your head over the internet, literally -or- metaphorically!

TROLOLOLOLOLO
 

[Reelyanoob]

But... the goblins aren't attacking me. Can attackes break floor hatches? or is this simply unbreakable and they'll never attack unless i 'remove it', or send people to the surface?

I had this experience recently in my prev fort, I had installed a new trap entrance, my first fully automated drowning trap, which collected goblins in the water trap (tested with caged goblins)

Closed the main gates during a siege, Goblins don't path through trap. Why? Opened the main gate (which has a few cage traps as early warning / defence) and goblins don't path in. I rebuilt this trap in my new fort and it worked fine during a siege. I now have a lever to flush / dump the remains near my (volcano powered) magma forges when needed.

I think something in Siege AI is broken sometimes.

[zilpin]

I think something in Siege AI is broken sometimes.

This may be intended siege behaviour.

Traditional (successful) sieges through history mean making a blockade around a fortification, until the inhabitants die of starvation, disease, or surrender.
Even if the gate is wide open, you wouldn't charge, because the defender has the advantage.
"Attacking" was typically more along the lines of taking pot-shots, slinging diseased animals & bodies over the walls, and the like.
Full assault was only done due to other mitigating factors (attacker running out of supply, time requirements, concern about reinforcements, show of force, politics).
A smart sieger knows that you win by forcing the defender to come attack you.

So, really, the Goblins are acting like smarter siegers.

Would be nice if they take tribute, or have other diplomatic options which I'm sure are coming in the Military Arc.
Until then, it would be nice if they were more aggressive attackers again, please, Toady.

[RedKing]

Hmm...I hadn't ever thought of this, but I wonder if you could use that building destroyer behavior against trolls as part of a trap. Like, having a 15 Z-level drop under your main entranceway, with locked hatch covers placed into the causeway/bridge (though not an actual constructed bridge). Troll breaks down hatch and either goes for a ride himself, or at least some nearby gobbos standing on the hatch go for a ride. Does anyone know if they stand on the hatch while they destroy it, or is it off to one side?

[Funburns]

Closed the main gates during a siege, Goblins don't path through trap. Why? Opened the main gate (which has a few cage traps as early warning / defence) and goblins don't path in.

If the leader of a siege or ambush is captured in a cage trap, all the goblins that came along will stand around the caged leader, waiting for him to Houdini and continue their death march into the dwarf-ridden bowels of the earth.

If the goblins are standing further away from your untriggered cage traps, then it's something else.

[EmperorJon]

Yeah, hate that cage trap business. I now put all cage traps in blocks with the odd weapon trap thrown in.

[Naryar]

I think something in Siege AI is broken sometimes.

This may be intended siege behaviour.

Traditional (successful) sieges through history mean making a blockade around a fortification, until the inhabitants die of starvation, disease, or surrender.
Even if the gate is wide open, you wouldn't charge, because the defender has the advantage.
"Attacking" was typically more along the lines of taking pot-shots, slinging diseased animals & bodies over the walls, and the like.
Full assault was only done due to other mitigating factors (attacker running out of supply, time requirements, concern about reinforcements, show of force, politics).
A smart sieger knows that you win by forcing the defender to come attack you.

Unlike IRL, Dwarf Fortress has drastically reduced growth time, crop size and underground plants. Sieges worked IRL because the castle's food supplies were just not grown over a few square meters. Sieges just really annoy you and kill the caravans (and your outdoor civilians if you are not prepared) , but locking yourself in is a valid defense against it since the caverns can bring you mostly everything you need. Food, water, wood.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I think something in Siege AI is broken sometimes.

This may be intended siege behaviour.

Traditional (successful) sieges through history mean making a blockade around a fortification, until the inhabitants die of starvation, disease, or surrender.
Even if the gate is wide open, you wouldn't charge, because the defender has the advantage.
"Attacking" was typically more along the lines of taking pot-shots, slinging diseased animals & bodies over the walls, and the like.
Full assault was only done due to other mitigating factors (attacker running out of supply, time requirements, concern about reinforcements, show of force, politics).
A smart sieger knows that you win by forcing the defender to come attack you.

So, really, the Goblins are acting like smarter siegers.

Would be nice if they take tribute, or have other diplomatic options which I'm sure are coming in the Military Arc.
Until then, it would be nice if they were more aggressive attackers again, please, Toady.

Or, y'know, add more siege-ey things like flinging dead bodies into forts or setting things on fire or...
Actually, unless they get inside, they couldn't do that to most dwarven forts. 

[zilpin]

Unlike IRL, Dwarf Fortress has drastically reduced growth time, crop size and underground plants. Sieges worked IRL because the castle's food supplies were just not grown over a few square meters. Sieges just really annoy you and kill the caravans (and your outdoor civilians if you are not prepared) , but locking yourself in is a valid defense against it since the caverns can bring you mostly everything you need. Food, water, wood.

Agree.
Especially the bold part.

That's why I would like for siegers to make a decision after 1 season has passed.  Either leave, or aggressively attack everything they have access to.  Charge the traps as a horde, destroy every statue, ransack and pillage carelessly.
Basically, how they used to be.