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[SalmonGod]

That is my literal interpretation of the situation.

1.  Announce plans to burn book.
2.  Receive many many many many and credible warnings that people will die if you do this.
3.  Do it anyway citing right to freedom of expression.

Pretty hard not to assume that the people involved intentionally sacrificed others for their own freedom of expression, and that is with all the most forgiving benefit of the doubt I can muster.

Edit:  "Benefit of the doubt" in this case means assuming that the book burners are incredibly stupid and did not give the slightest bit of thought to the possible consequences of their actions before announcing them.  This seems highly unlikely, considering they probably wouldn't have publically announced and played with the media so much if they didn't think it was a big deal before people started telling them as much.

[Criptfeind]

Yes, but the point is, was the hyperbole when you said that was as bad as the guy who bashed another humans brains out unto the ground?

[Strife26]

Morally, I'm pretty sure that one could consider it to be murder, or at least very reckless endangerment. However, this doesn't excuse the fact that Islamic culture is killing non-coms (or anyone) over it. Basically idiot McPreacher shouldn't of done that, but he did go and very very harshly remake the point (see dutch cartoon-gate) that there's something fucked up with the level of intolerance in some parts of the world. I'd probably beat the crap out of the burners if I had the chance (on the virtue of clear and present danger), but I put a large chunk of the blame on the culture that's doing the actual killing.


Also, it's interesting how I look at this, considering that one of the people liable to die for shit like this is *me.* I should probably add it to the list of non-normal things about my psyche.

[SalmonGod]

Yes, but the point is, was the hyperbole when you said that was as bad as the guy who bashed another humans brains out unto the ground?

No.  It's not hyperbole.  They knowingly caused death, the same as a murderer knowingly causes death.

[Criptfeind]

You think they truly thought about it that deeply.

Hell, this is not even a argument I can really be part of. I do not think that they were nearly as guilty as the people who killed someone.

[SalmonGod]

You think they truly thought about it that deeply.

This is why I disclaimered benefit of the doubt regarding extreme stupidity.  They were told that people were going to die if they did this.  Many times.  By important people.  If they didn't think about it enough to be conscious of what they were doing after this, their sheer stupidity should have them locked away as dangers to society.

[Criptfeind]

What do you think about calling what they did manslaughter and the other guys murder?

[SalmonGod]

Quick Wikipedia search to brush up on the legal technicalities

Manslaughter is a legal term for the killing of a human being, in a manner considered by law as less culpable than murder.

The law generally differentiates between levels of criminal culpability based on the mens rea, or state of mind. This is particularly true within the law of homicide, where murder requires either the intent to kill – a state of mind called malice, or malice aforethought – or the knowledge that one's actions are likely to result in death; manslaughter, on the other hand, requires a lack of any prior intention to kill or create a deadly situation.

Bold is the part I have trouble with.  I don't really know what legal action, if any, should be taken against them.  Their action was legally protected, and doing anything could set dangerous precedents that could spill over into other more innocent situations.  Rights are sticky things like that.  All I'm arguing is the way they deserve to be viewed.

[Strife26]

It's awfully tough legally (morally, I don't even know where to start). It's definitely a case where freedom of speech isn't a full protection (C&PD), but I don't think it qualifies as full murder. Of course, I'm not sure if "fermenting riot in another country with political speech in America, causing the death of UN officials," qualifies for anything in any lawbook. 

[Criptfeind]

I am sure that something like fermenting dissent would cover it.

[FallingWhale]

Terry Jones is diagnosably insane, so, there's that, and he can easily be put in the care of institution.
Free speech doesn't free you from libel, reckless endangerment resulting in death, or really most things.

To my understanding the guards fired first after rocks were thrown, and that was a really bad move.

On the execution; Florida hasn't burned a convict in more then 100 years; I'm not sure if you can still request it anyway, how was the book not given a chance to appeal the verdict, and why were more then just the tried book burned?

Anyway, that is a very ironic church name: Dove World Outreach Center.

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

Oddly, this whole story has only made me want to go re-enlist in the military so I can go fight murderous bastards for Pastor Jones right and freedom to burn whatever book he so wishes.

There is the story going around about Sen. Lindsey Graham and freedom of speech in wartime.  The idea that you cannot ridicule your "enemy" in wartime is preposterous.

Lastly, I think the people far more culpable than the Pastor, would be the media.  Money making frenzy over the story.  The more people die, the better it gets for them.  The talking heads area all a'twitter in their ecstacy of opion journalism.  It makes me sick.  Based on the above posted law concerning manslaughter, they are absolutely as culpable as Pastor Jones.

But I will say this for Pastor Jones, he actions have really highlighted a lot of issues that a lot of poeple would rather pretend werent there.  It certainly isnt getting boring.

I had not heard that the guards fired on the protestors, if so, I would have say the Pastor is off the hook.  Some else escalated a protest to murderous levels when it might have not gone there is its true.  And if thats the case, it puts everything thats been talked about into the realm of "we gone further off the deep end than the pastor".  I need to research this more.

[Strife26]

I am sure that something like fermenting dissent would cover it.

But it's fermenting dissent in another country.


The fact that we're fighting in a COIN or environment slightly off of it actually *does* mean that you can't ridicule our enemy. Killing the enemy isn't a feasible method to victory, it's a matter of us trying to get the local populations in such a mindset that they isolate the enemy, at which point we can let the extreme elements wither or use kinetic outreach to the enemy. Interestingly, if one wanted to read into it, Koran burning is working directly *against* the US mission, so it could actually fall under treason.


Now, let's look at the media issue. I agree that they deserve a nice heaping chunk of blame.

[SalmonGod]

The idea that you cannot ridicule your "enemy" in wartime is preposterous.

I hope you're not the type who believes the entirety of Islam is the "enemy".  If not, this context doesn't apply.

[Criptfeind]

The idea that you cannot ridicule your "enemy" in wartime is preposterous.

I hope you're not the type who believes the entirety of Islam is the "enemy".  If not, this context doesn't apply.

Why is it when the forum toll gets smacked down a new one must pop up?

I am sure that something like fermenting dissent would cover it.

But it's fermenting dissent in another country.

Well. True. You could say that will make the war drag on longer, and since the war is so unpopular it would be fermenting dissent here.

Of course that would totally be a dick move, but you could do it.