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Author Topic: CJ's personal project, "The Color of War is Gray" OR "Pretentiousness Incarnate"  (Read 4255 times)

Supermikhail

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Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2011, 08:52:05 am »

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But Albus had seen their plight, and for the first time in eons a councilor felt sympathy for the less fortunate.
This part is extremely suspicious. It feels like the writer was sponsored by the clan. ;) I'd think in the face of a rebellion it was better for him to figure out some way to pacify the masses. And the rest of the Guild was probably very glad that he took the initiative.

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He experimented with it, and to his surprise found that when diluted in water and with sodium dissolved within
Made me laugh. When you dissolve sodium in water you get an explosion, first, then a solution quite hazardous to living tissue. But it wouldn't be a solution of sodium.

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If it could repair tissue, it could likely be used to grow it as well. Albus, a man with no sons of his own, found this to be a practical godsend. The Amagai clan had the means to create the perfect cloning vats.
Well, that's a parade of baseless statements. First, that's how tissue repair works - it is regrown over. Second, no, you can't just put a few hairs off your head into a nutritious solution and grow a copy of yourself. You need an ovum to start the development. Without an ovum, you'll just grow more of the same tissue (in the best, magical case). Frankly, you don't need sci-fi magics for cloning - the science and technology is available to us already. You need a womb, without it you simply won't get a child, and you might need gene manipulation, because there are bound to be cloning artifacts, like accelerated aging - age, scientists say, is encoded in the DNA, and so would be transfered from Albus to Darius.

In short, you are performing some hard-to-understand shenanigans. From any point, it would have been far easier for Albus to have a natural child. He would have managed to foster a worthy successor somehow, considering what a great diplomat he was.

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“Gotta say, Chuck, your boss could learn some manners. Two fine ladies like us show up at your door, and all you can tell ‘em is a bunch of horseshit about conduct?”
Well, the first time I thought I misunderstood. It's quite a weird thing for a grilled war veteran to willingly compare himself to a lady.

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With a strong smack, he pressed it down into the paper, leaving behind its imprint.
Try without "leaving behind its imprint." It's kind of obvious what a strongly smacked thing leaves. I've noticed that you sometimes like to state obvious things. Well, nothing that can't be corrected in rewriting.

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“It appears that you are rather bold in your design choices, Councilor Smitt.”
No, he is not bold. If he walked in the street in his design choices, it would have been bold. But it's his residence, with armed guards. He is just extravagant, or something.

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He leaned forward and stared at the Councilor intently. “Sir, I beg your pardon, but do you have any of that water left? I would love to see it for myself.”

“Alas, Councilor Amagai, I do not.” Orville responded with a dejected sigh. “When I first tasted that water, I was filled with greed, a basic need and desire for all of that water that I could drink. There was not a drop left in that bottle when I was finished with it.”

“I see.” Darius whispered. He turned back and looked at the Councilor in a colder expression than before. “Without that water then, your age must be catching up with you. You’ve probably thought long and hard about an heir, then?”
This is a strange conversation, reminding me of medieval romance. They are so obvious and so exaggerated. Are you going for Medieval romance?

Maybe what's bothering me is how the lofty language is contrasted by the vile deeds. Ehm. It's strange to see a situation like that written in the style of high fantasy. Maybe it would work with realism better.

Although, I must commend you on your dedication. That's a pretty fast pace you're moving at.
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CJ1145

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Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2011, 02:12:46 pm »

I'm on a phone again, so I'll address a paragraph to each subject, in the order you placed them in.

I admit, when I wrote this section, I looked back and said "this guy looks like a saint." I thought about correcting it, then I thought about how this could be a good thought. What if this nigh-messianic figure's actions not only failed to save the galaxy, they brought it to ruin? It could also come to light that he's less perfect than people thought, but I don't know for sure. I probably know less than the reader in some areas.

The sodium thing was intentional, making the parts of the solution so wholly impossible that it becomes obvious that something in that fluid is extraordinary. While I'm trying to give the world depth, hard realism and science is definitely not a focus.

The whole cloning bull is my own fault. I kind of left the actual process vague on purpose due to my lack of knowledge on it. But a natural son was not an option in Albus' mind. Darius would have been born weak and fragile like the rest of the Guild, and more importantly it was possible for him to hide the vats. A living, breathing, and thinking individual would have been harder to hide and protect.

Chuck has a (sometimes bad) sense of humor he clings to. Not to mention he's somewhat insane to begin with. He was, when you think about it, the instigator for the whole coup taking place.

True, easy to fix, but it's just sort of a habit of mine that I have trouble catching.

True, it's not bold, but pretty much every word in this conversation is ass-kissing on Darius' part. He wants to make it known how highly he thinks of the Councilor, so that he might be able to influence the choice of heir.

The speech style for this part was intentional. In formal meetings like this, the Councilors intentionally up the refinement in their speech to appear more noble. And like you seemed to notice this was to contrast with just how terrible they are; they're a bunch of dirty, amoral crooks who try to act like gentlemen for the sake of their own consciences.

And thank you :)
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Supermikhail

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Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2011, 01:06:40 am »

Don't mention it. :)

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The whole cloning bull is my own fault. I kind of left the actual process vague on purpose due to my lack of knowledge on it. But a natural son was not an option in Albus' mind. Darius would have been born weak and fragile like the rest of the Guild, and more importantly it was possible for him to hide the vats. A living, breathing, and thinking individual would have been harder to hide and protect.
It sounds like a religious thing. It might be easier to make sense of if it was a religious thing, that is, Albus thought, for example, that the human flesh of the councilors has become unpure, and so the savior has to come from an immaculate inception. Probably could save some shenanigans, and add something the reader could relate to. Well, maybe "relate" is not the right word. More like, find something familiar... No, make Albus easier to understand. Although how you work it into the plot... It could be done, by making Darius's origin an object of exploration throughout the story, or at least a part of it. Right now, the introduction seems a little too long, and as if you've told in it everything that happens in the story - Darius was created to change the world. And he proceeds to do so. There might be a little too little intrigue. Not that it's no fun watching terrible deeds unfolding, and exploring another world.

To the sodium thing. Well, everybody reading it would think that it's a goof. That is, anybody somewhat familiar with chemistry. You have to back it up somehow. At least remove water out of that. Sodium is still pretty dangerous without it. Although, what made you single out sodium is a mystery to me. Also, the closest most metals come to being dissolved is in the form of amalgams. I don't think this is a genre where you want to make intentional mistakes, or what without explanation seems to be mistakes.

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The speech style for this part was intentional. In formal meetings like this, the Councilors intentionally up the refinement in their speech to appear more noble. And like you seemed to notice this was to contrast with just how terrible they are; they're a bunch of dirty, amoral crooks who try to act like gentlemen for the sake of their own consciences.
It's more not their speech, then, but your, the author's, attitude towards it - that lofty style I keep talking about. When you surround the characters' insincere, hypocritical statements with... well, take this passage
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squealed the councilor, as he vigorously shook the youth’s hand. Darius attempted a smile
"vigorously", "attempted" (here), "squealed" (as a dialog tag) - you don't meet them out of fantasy or medieval literature, or satire these days. The reader then thinks "I'm not supposed to take this seriously, right?" - but there's not enough humor. "Is this a philosophical writing?" - well, we'll see. Also, I didn't notice much difference in Darius's speech when he was talking to councilors and to Bill. You might want to add a touch of realism into the author's words. There's a lot of you in this story (it's not a bad thing), you become a sort of meta-character, and the reader relates to you, too, becomes aware of your "actions". Although, being a beginning writer, you could leave these considerations until the rewrite, or your next novel. By the way, what's the accumulated word count?
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CJ1145

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Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2011, 05:41:57 am »

Hm, the religious idea is interesting. Right now the physical reasoning is that the councilors are physically weak and frail. Most that aren't skin and bones are noticeably overweight. More reason could easily be given over the course of a story, though.

The sodium is something that can be removed easily, but the water is plot-related, as it sets up part of Darius' incentive to jump off the slippery slope.

The speech issue is my fault, obviously, but I've tried and there's not much I can do about it. I've been told I have a very advanced vocabulary for my age, and I addmit my writing style is just a tad archaic, so combined this might be a bit weird for sci-fi writing. Funny story, about four years ago when I started writing the first prototype of this story, someone compared my writing to Tom Clancy. I wasn't sure whether to thank or slap him.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, Darius consistently speaks like that on purpose. He is all business all the time, or at least he wants to appear that way.

The total word count, including chapter titles (which are mostly descriptions there for my own benefit) my story clocks in just shy of 10,000 words.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 05:56:56 am by CJ1145 »
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CJ1145

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Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2011, 08:23:43 pm »

So I've written another chapter, this time focusing on Bill and the assassinatin of Councilor Smitt. I was originally planning to have Chapters 4, 5, and now 6 all take place in a single chapter, but I realized that was way too long compared to the short in comparison chapters before it. So I've split them up.

Also, based on the views this thread's got it can't just be me and Supermikhail reading this. If anyone else is reading and likes the story, hates it, or wants to comment on something, feel free to post. Getting constructive criticism is why I post this here.

Spoiler: Chapter 5 (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 08:23:13 am by CJ1145 »
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Supermikhail

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Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2011, 02:17:56 pm »

Hey, look, tl;dr! 8) Well, either my nemesis has caught up with me, or you kind of overdid it this time. Seriously, I don't know what it is with forums, but they are very unsuitable for long prose. Maybe it's a myriad of links to reply, go to other threads, check out the news, etc, but it's pretty hard to concentrate on something as long. Well, you've split the chapters up... but maybe it's time you did some rewriting, for conciseness. Like, the third paragraph - exposition, again - give us some action! It's like a history class. Maybe it's just me, but I think that it's much more fun to infer this stuff from subtle hints in the action. And actually, you've said it all in the two previous paragraphs. It's perfectly clear that Crimsons and Badgers aren't on friendly terms. You won't attract more readers by long-winded abstract explanations.

Also, there's a lot of chit-chat before the climactic assault. I couldn't understand at first why they all got together. The beginning could make more of a point.
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CJ1145

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Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2011, 08:08:33 pm »

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but maybe it's time you did some rewriting, for conciseness. Like, the third paragraph - exposition, again - give us some action! It's like a history class. Maybe it's just me, but I think that it's much more fun to infer this stuff from subtle hints in the action.
True, and fair enough. I'm just not quite sure how I would accomplish this. It'd doable though, I guess it will just take a while.

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Also, there's a lot of chit-chat before the climactic assault. I couldn't understand at first why they all got together. The beginning could make more of a point.
I don't actually quite understand what you mean here. Could you explain please?
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Supermikhail

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Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2011, 04:55:41 am »

Okay. I guess what I actually meant with my second paragraph is that you should cut the whole morale speech together with exposition. I can't help but imagine it as a chapter exclusively for an assault mission, which should start with the beginning of the assault - that is, as the troops are landing... If we agree that the morale speech doesn't add anything to the plot, the cussy, slack way it's performed by cap'n Bill doesn't really serve to keep attention.

Yeah, is the rivalry between troops going to have some impact on the plot later?
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CJ1145

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Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2011, 07:22:21 am »

Okay. I guess what I actually meant with my second paragraph is that you should cut the whole morale speech together with exposition. I can't help but imagine it as a chapter exclusively for an assault mission, which should start with the beginning of the assault - that is, as the troops are landing... If we agree that the morale speech doesn't add anything to the plot, the cussy, slack way it's performed by cap'n Bill doesn't really serve to keep attention.
I understand what you're saying here, but I can't help but feel that if I got rid of it the new question would be "How did we magically teleport to the assault? What happened in-between?"

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Yeah, is the rivalry between troops going to have some impact on the plot later?
Yes, mildly so in the next chapter and more significantly later on.
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Neonivek

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Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2011, 08:56:51 am »

Odd I thought when he mentioned Sodium he was refering to salt (in the same way most nutrional guides refer to salt as sodium)
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Supermikhail

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Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2011, 10:24:10 am »

Well. They don't refer to salt. They imply sodium ion. I think they expect a certain category to access their guides, who'd get what they talk about, because of the experience with colloquialisms like this. CJ doesn't supply the necessary chemical context, to take such colloquialisms naturally. But he still uses "dissolved", and sodium in guides refers to sodium ion. You can't dissolve an ion. Ions form after dissolving.

I understand what you're saying here, but I can't help but feel that if I got rid of it the new question would be "How did we magically teleport to the assault? What happened in-between?"
With Neonivek's appearance I guess I might be wrong about the need to cut everything. Still, does the intro answer the question of how we come to the assault? The troops were already gathered at the end of chapter 4. It is not a big logical leap from troops being gathered to troops assaulting a castle (or whatever). Yeah, like they say "do not underestimate your readers". And if you didn't write what happened in between, it means that nothing siginficant did. At least that's my two cents.
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CJ1145

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Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2011, 08:27:56 pm »

Well. They don't refer to salt. They imply sodium ion. I think they expect a certain category to access their guides, who'd get what they talk about, because of the experience with colloquialisms like this. CJ doesn't supply the necessary chemical context, to take such colloquialisms naturally. But he still uses "dissolved", and sodium in guides refers to sodium ion. You can't dissolve an ion. Ions form after dissolving.
Chemistry isn't really my thing. Well that's a lie, I'm acing Chemistry but I try not to think about it too much. Mind you I'm not editing the posts I've made here, but I am editing the word document that holds it all, and when I reach milestones I intend to repost the story to see how it ties together in one long segment. The reason I say this is that in the updated version sodium is gone.

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With Neonivek's appearance I guess I might be wrong about the need to cut everything. Still, does the intro answer the question of how we come to the assault? The troops were already gathered at the end of chapter 4. It is not a big logical leap from troops being gathered to troops assaulting a castle (or whatever). Yeah, like they say "do not underestimate your readers". And if you didn't write what happened in between, it means that nothing siginficant did. At least that's my two cents.

True. I think I'll get to work on trying to figure out a good way to get rid of that speech while still making at least a tiny lead-up, as opposed to starting the chapter when their boots hit the roof.

EDIT: For the sake of my own pride as a shitty amateur writer, was the action itself okay?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 08:56:46 pm by CJ1145 »
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Supermikhail

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Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2011, 03:09:46 am »

Okay, about that.

What does "impacted the roof with prejudice" mean? At least in the context. Do the guns have any choice about the way they do their job?

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The man behind him grabbed his shoulder as he passed a door and whispered “This is the floor, Councilor Smitt’s office is here."
You're a bit too far from the identifier of the person. It doesn't read well.

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The Captain’s eyes shot open as he cursed every word he could think of as the young man’s corpse collapsed on him.
That's called over-dramatizing. There's hardly time for that, and besides, surely he didn't expect to complete the mission without any casualties. After all, they're not ninja-sneaking in. That's the thing with over-dramatizing - it usually feels fake to the reader. You aren't going to think about the caliber of the bullets flying around you, at least not consciously. You aren't going to have time to come up with fancy swears in the middle of a battle.

And dragging the body was hardly timely or appropriate. The guy was dead - the victor does whatever he wants with the fallen. There's kind of no point.

One more point of overdramatizing - for some reason, the enemies are referred to as "men" whereas our guys are "boys", at least when they are killed. While passion in the writing is appreciated, the author is kind of expected to keep a level head. There are no good or bad guys for you, they are all your creations. Or if you imply that that's Bill thoughts, somehow mark that in the text.

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A guttural sound welled up in his throat, and his body collapsed in a single, fluid motion.
Well, that's weird. I don't know how to explain it, but this description kind of doesn't want to go with death. I expect someone to do something in a single, fluid motion of their own volition, and collapsing dead doesn't fit.

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A commotion of agreement and ashamed apologies came from Bill’s men, but they regrouped quickly and formed up into two groups of five.
There's nothing to apoligize for. There is no gun-fu. Firefight is not exact science. Somebody always gets hit by mistake, by accident, by ricochet.

Cloud mercenary exposition flow breaker. Cut it.

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The last sound he made was a pathetic hacking sound as his two sides hit the floor.
Cut that. He didn't make any sounds because there's a rampage in action.

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Bill immediately identified the Cloud’s helmet as the source of his inhuman accuracy, guiding the mercenaries movements to perfectly strike his enemies.
About that. Just yesterday... No the day before that - we talked with a guy about practical applications of katanas, and agreed that slicing a man in half, vertically, is not one of them. Especially upwards. You probably need to push on the guys head to do it. And still, you'll blunt your weapon too much for your effort, however hard it is. And I don't see much application for inhuman accuracy with such a weapon - I mean, wherever you hit you score. So, unless the computer has a "show off" setting, it's wasted.

With that said, a casual reader might not notice, or ignore, so it's entirely your choice. You've already said science is not your goal.

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Bill attempted to defend himself in this odd position
Bad choice of words for a climactic moment.

Although, the moment itself is a bit slow. I don't think many will be able to visualize everything that you wove there. It probably plays out perfectly in your mind as an action movie, but with text it's a bit hard to keep up. Maybe you could compact it, or break it up with some speech? Can't the Cloud speak?

All in all, though, frankly, you're great at visual stuff and action. I guess I took it for granted before, but it's very good and important that your characters always do something physical, supplement their speech and thoughts by non-verbal components. Yeah, Darius's rolled shoulders sent a wrong message, but at least there was a message.

One more thing. With such an action packed chapter you are expected to have similar passages later. Your story will be cataloged with combat sci-fi, so don't decide to go philosophical later on.
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Willfor

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Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2011, 05:28:52 am »

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One more point of overdramatizing - for some reason, the enemies are referred to as "men" whereas our guys are "boys", at least when they are killed. While passion in the writing is appreciated, the author is kind of expected to keep a level head. There are no good or bad guys for you, they are all your creations. Or if you imply that that's Bill thoughts, somehow mark that in the text.
With hard limited third-person perspective, there is actually no need to mark such things as the thoughts of the character as everything is assumed to be from the character's perspective. It's a fun way to write, in my opinion. It's even more fun when you take on the perspective of a character from the other side, and show the prejudices they have compared to the prejudices of the protagonist(s), not using dialogue but subtle thought clues.
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In the wells of livestock vans with shells and garden sands /
Iron mixed with oxygen as per the laws of chemistry and chance /
A shape was roughly human, it was only roughly human /
Apparition eyes / Apparition eyes / Knock, apparition, knock / Eyes, apparition eyes /

CJ1145

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Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2011, 05:51:39 am »

Once again I lack a proper computer so I'll just respond to each point in order.

That word "prejudice" is one of my many banes when writing. I know it doesn't go there but it snuck in (I know it's sneaked but that's stupid, snuck is better-sounding to me) like it does in nearly every story I write.

The word "him" refers to Bill, so I guess I'll just replace the pronoun with his name.

The over-dramatizing wouldn't be AS bad, because I meant to say that it happened in his head. I forgot to write that I guess. As I'm planning to explain later, Bill is very attached to his soldiers. He gets very upset when they die, and at the least tries to ensure their bodies aren't harmed beyond the necessary in combat. He was forced to give up on that when his entire squad died, and he gets a rant about it later.

I hadn't even noticed the men and boys pattern. Huh. I tend to sort of space out when I'm writing. I could add a few lines to explain that these are Bill's thoughts. I think Willfor has a point though.

You're right, it does sound pretty weird.

They're not apologizing because two. Men died, they're apologizing because they're supposed to be an elite force and made a rookie mistake.

The exposition is too long, but I'll still need a few lines to show why Bill is so pants-wettingly terrified of them.

All right, I'll try cutting it though I can't exactly see why to see if it flows better.

The Cloud is actually not wielding a katana, and if I said katana anywhere that was an accident. It's more of an elongated scimitar. And the only reason the Cloud managed that kill was because of his extremely strong blade, which is essentially magical. (This does become a plot point later, it's not just a handwave.)

It isn't the best choice of words, but it. Can be easily fixed.

And thank you. I do intend for there to be a lot more action later in the story, though this is definitely the least actiony of all the versions of this story I've ever made. I'm trying to work a bit harder on the characters this time instead of just the war.
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