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Author Topic: =-~Corrosion~-= [UPDATING] ***43.x (thanks Evil Bunny)*** <<Infected>>  (Read 244200 times)

Psieye

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Re: =-~Corrosion~-= [v1.1.4] _NOW IN 34.05_
« Reply #1470 on: March 13, 2012, 05:58:25 pm »

Hmm, yes I see what you mean about digging still being too easy - I like embarking in thick soil lands in vanilla DF. This carried right through for me as I found a sand layer and just dug out huge swaths of the 'soil' to get my infrastructure up. Having all soil have the risk of having dig-interruption 'drops' sounds fair - certainly it would encourage me to look for less soil so I can get to ore faster. Though since you want players to build above ground forts, I take it there's an assumption that players will always want to embark in high vegetation (shrubs and trees) areas?

On the note of resources, have you considered putting in a reaction to make many stacks of pellets/bolts at once, just as bullets/shells come in bulk? Currently a whole log has to disappear to get 25 wooden pellets/bolts. In my last Corrosion fort I had some 30+ riflemen who went through ammo very fast on archery ranges. Building lots of air rifles or crossbows and using wooden ammo to train up rifle skill sounds like the economic way to train an army in this mod but current pellet/bolt production is very resource inefficient.

By the way, is it intended that shotgun shells make for better ammo capacity? Shells are produced in stacks of 15 which means a soldier will pack 2 stacks of 15 into his quiver whereas can only fit one stack of 25 bullets. Given shotguns hit harder than rifles, doesn't that mean the only reason to use rifles is the bayonet (and if you're resource-limited)?

If I recall right people will try to get to 30 without going over, I've seen my dwarves in vanilla haul around 25 bolts plus a stack of bone bolts.
Hmm, I thought the limit was up to 40 or so, but I never checked carefully. I wish quiver sizes could be modded, individually per ammo item would be better. Alas, we are stuck with one bullet being the exact same size as a shotgun shell in quiver-space.

This is kind of a nooby question but where do you make screwdrivers and screws?
Screwdrivers get forged at a weaponsmith's forge. Screws get made at the new "blacksmith's workshop" building.
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Congrats, Psieye. This is the first time I've seen a derailed thread get put back on the rails.

Pallbearer

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Re: =-~Corrosion~-= [v1.1.4] _NOW IN 34.05_
« Reply #1471 on: March 13, 2012, 09:16:55 pm »

Well, I don't really have a huge opinion when it comes to the soil. I only use it for basements one Z level below a building, with maybe a second basement below. If it's a hot climate then I use a lot of them because I like kind of pretending that it keeps my humans nice and cool. I'm a sucker for realism like that. I also make sure I have support pillars that are at the very most three blocks away from each other. I prefer to keep it at two blocks of distance though; I am very anal about realism sometimes.

Enough about me though, if you want to find a plausible reason to keep people out of soil then maybe have a new type called 'polluted soil'. The premise being that the zombie apocalypse has lead to many fires and whatnot as cities burn to the ground with no-one to put them out.
Now, I'm not a scientist or anything, but it's not a huge leap to guess that it would really mess with the atmosphere and perhaps even cause poisonous rain. The rain would seep underground and imbue the soil with its toxicity.
This could be an explanation for 'evil' rain and mists as well. I guess that the reason it doesn't rain toxic sludge in non evil areas is because you're playing hundreds of years after it started, and over that time the poison has been leeched underground (a good explanation for your cave creatures maybe?). I mean, who has World Gen set to below 100?

As for the infected, I like your new suggestions. I say go for it!
The issue won't be fixed though (as I'm sure you know), and that's because the mechanics of Dwarf Fortress let you seal yourself up very easily. I assume that competent players will have adequate meat/egg farms that are contained inside, along with a well, so they could very well last forever. That is assuming, of course, that their humans behave.
What zombies can't do a tantrum spiral will do. It's very Romero really. :)
Actually, I guess something you could do is make some zombies amphibeous. A half completed sewer could result in an early fortress death. That depends on your own personal taste for zombies though. Undead vs infected kind of deal.

Some other ideas that have been floating in my brain are about concrete. I really love using concrete for walls and shelters. It feels very realistic to me that zombies can't penetrate concrete, but not so much when they can't tear down my wooden walls. I know there's nothing that can be down about the integrity of walls based on material, but maybe we could get greater access to concrete.
Perhaps a way to create it, or maybe a reaction that's only available to Warlords, or Enlightened Humans, or even your own parent civilisation if there's a way to keep you from getting it. That way you can trade for it.

Another suggestion is barbed wire for traps. In fact, if there was a way to make it so that barbed wire would release a syndrome when touched that would reduce agility for a short time that would be awesome.
I can't think of any way to make that happen though. :(

What else? Perhaps a way to make kevlar from Gloomapeck silk? I guess it's risk vs reward.

Also, battery powered kilns would be nice.

I'm pretty out of ideas right now, but thanks for taking the time to read through!
If anything seems really stupid or out of place then just say so. I won't be upset over a guy on the internet not liking something I like. :P

EDIT:
I got a bit bored so I tried my hand at making the battery powered kiln. I think I succeeded. It all works for me! Very exciting because it's the first proper thing I modded in. Mind you, I did just copy and paste stuff from between your RAWS and the default ones. ;)

Sorry if it's all messy and whatnot:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 07:27:14 am by Pallbearer »
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ArKFallen

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Re: =-~Corrosion~-= [v1.1.4] _NOW IN 34.05_
« Reply #1472 on: March 14, 2012, 06:20:19 am »

You could make a poisonous gas-rock thing found in clusters (whatever size) in certain soils and give them the same name and tile as the soil. You'd never know if what you're about to dig was toxic. It'd similar to current toxic rock layers, but reversed with small clusters of the hidden poison.
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crazyjake56

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Re: =-~Corrosion~-= [v1.1.4] _NOW IN 34.05_
« Reply #1473 on: March 14, 2012, 08:59:52 pm »

What does rock chop axe mean?
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kilakan

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Re: =-~Corrosion~-= [v1.1.4] _NOW IN 34.05_
« Reply #1474 on: March 14, 2012, 09:01:17 pm »

What does rock chop axe mean?
A chop axe is a type of axe that tends to be somewhat dull but very heavy for cutting down trees, and you happen to have one made of rock.
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crazyjake56

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Re: =-~Corrosion~-= [v1.1.4] _NOW IN 34.05_
« Reply #1475 on: March 14, 2012, 09:05:09 pm »

What does rock chop axe mean?
A chop axe is a type of axe that tends to be somewhat dull but very heavy for cutting down trees, and you happen to have one made of rock.
Actually I need to find/craft/loot one. But thanks anyway.
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Pallbearer

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Re: =-~Corrosion~-= [v1.1.4] _NOW IN 34.05_
« Reply #1476 on: March 14, 2012, 10:48:03 pm »

Less deadly stone if anyone is keen. It'll still kill your miners, but this should make it easier to find ore. I based this on the Black Lung mod. I just made it so that it works a little bit more realistic, in my opinion. :)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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IT 000

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Re: =-~Corrosion~-= [v1.1.4] _NOW IN 34.05_
« Reply #1477 on: March 15, 2012, 01:39:43 am »

I'm very happy with the Ambushes so far. I've lost more lives than when they siege. Which is nice (Only is DF is more death a good thing), they come later though, I didn't get my first one until year 3. Had a few snatchers before that though. I suppose one could think of it takes some time for the hordes to reach you. However the Vulpine Infected still kept me on my toes, and still arrived at the first year.

I consider it harder. Sieges are no longer season to season year 'round, but if you can bunker down and defend against the Vulpine in the winter, you'll have no trouble with the Standard Infected anyways.

I'd like to run some tests with migrant Infected, I believe they have promise, they're just way to easy to detect. Perhaps if they don't start rotting until they feed, have the interaction effect themselves and their victim. Other then that, I'll try running a test with werebeasts, maybe I can get them to change at a different time then at every full moon.

RANDOM CHANGE : poisonous stone now only affects privations, and wagons are now fireproof. This means no more dieing merchants unless they're part of your civ.

Quote
Hmm, yes I see what you mean about digging still being too easy - I like embarking in thick soil lands in vanilla DF. This carried right through for me as I found a sand layer and just dug out huge swaths of the 'soil' to get my infrastructure up. Having all soil have the risk of having dig-interruption 'drops' sounds fair - certainly it would encourage me to look for less soil so I can get to ore faster. Though since you want players to build above ground forts, I take it there's an assumption that players will always want to embark in high vegetation (shrubs and trees) areas?

I was thinking something along the lines of a drowsiness syndrome, not something that will kill you or deter you from digging soil to much, just something to make it take longer. So mining in vegetation deprived environments is still possible. But I swear that I've never seen a desert with a tree in the last few versions,  :-\ no wood is certain death in this mod.

Ironically, I'm probably helping the player more than I am hurting them, this large cluster will be smoothable and engraveable. So in the long run, it might be more of an advantage.

I'll probably be changing pneumatic guns to be easier to make, (simply because currently guns are cheaper then them) 1  mechanism instead of a gunpart, perhaps plastic instead of metal and no wood. Maybe making them a bit weaker.

Quote
On the note of resources, have you considered putting in a reaction to make many stacks of pellets/bolts at once, just as bullets/shells come in bulk? Currently a whole log has to disappear to get 25 wooden pellets/bolts. In my last Corrosion fort I had some 30+ riflemen who went through ammo very fast on archery ranges. Building lots of air rifles or crossbows and using wooden ammo to train up rifle skill sounds like the economic way to train an army in this mod but current pellet/bolt production is very resource inefficient.

It might seem like that, but here's how the math looks on paper.

For bullets :

1 wood + potash* = Potassium Nitrate
Potassium Nitrate + charcoal = gunpowder
shells/bullets (= 1 metal bar) + 1 metal bar + gunpowder = bullet/shell

* I'm assuming you're getting the ash from vermin, not wood.

So you end up using 2 wood and 2 metal for 60 shells or 100 bullets.
4 wood/metal = 100 bolts/pellets
or 1 bone -> 5 pellets/bolts

So while bolts and pellets are more intensive on one resource. Bullets and Shells take more time and resources to build. I suppose I could make the gypsum -> sulfur -> gunpowder route a little tougher, but in order to get gypsum you either need dig into hard rock, which is in the caverns most time, or an embark with little soil and hard rock right under you, so you probably deserve an easier route at that point.

Quote
Enough about me though, if you want to find a plausible reason to keep people out of soil then maybe have a new type called 'polluted soil'. The premise being that the zombie apocalypse has lead to many fires and whatnot as cities burn to the ground with no-one to put them out.
Now, I'm not a scientist or anything, but it's not a huge leap to guess that it would really mess with the atmosphere and perhaps even cause poisonous rain. The rain would seep underground and imbue the soil with its toxicity.
This could be an explanation for 'evil' rain and mists as well. I guess that the reason it doesn't rain toxic sludge in non evil areas is because you're playing hundreds of years after it started, and over that time the poison has been leeched underground (a good explanation for your cave creatures maybe?). I mean, who has World Gen set to below 100?

This seems like the most plausible route for several magical anomalies. I could have a couple different types of dangerous soil. Toxic sludge might be understandably rarer, but also more potent. It won't be deadly, probably on par with decomposed trash except worse.

My other idea was just a 'dense soil' that makes miners tired and need to sleep.

Quote
Actually, I guess something you could do is make some zombies amphibeous. A half completed sewer could result in an early fortress death. That depends on your own personal taste for zombies though. Undead vs infected kind of deal.

I've experimented with this a little bit, but the only way to keep zombies out at the moment is to have a moat (dry or water) with a bridge. So a swimming infected will probably be a semi-megabeast at most.

Quote
Perhaps a way to create it, or maybe a reaction that's only available to Warlords, or Enlightened Humans, or even your own parent civilisation if there's a way to keep you from getting it. That way you can trade for it.

I have some notes on concrete, you were supposed to be able to create your own. Lime -> Sand -> Water, but all three pose problems, lime is basically limestone, which is not in the game. For sand, I'll have to create one reaction for each color of stand a minor work around, but still annoying nevertheless. And you can't have a reaction that requires water at the moment. Civ's don't respect modded reactions unless metal is the product, so that's why they don't trade them.

Quote
Another suggestion is barbed wire for traps. In fact, if there was a way to make it so that barbed wire would release a syndrome when touched that would reduce agility for a short time that would be awesome.
I can't think of any way to make that happen though. :(

Can't, wish I could though, that sounds like a good idea.

Quote
What else? Perhaps a way to make kevlar from Gloomapeck silk? I guess it's risk vs reward.

I don't remember if this is in your version or not, but 3 Gloomapeck silk can be turned into Gloomapeck Silver which is weak against most creations, but fantastic against infected!

I have one bar so far! Going to level up my weaponsmith a little more before I let him touch the thing.

Quote
I got a bit bored so I tried my hand at making the battery powered kiln. I think I succeeded. It all works for me! Very exciting because it's the first proper thing I modded in. Mind you, I did just copy and paste stuff from between your RAWS and the default ones. ;)

Wow! You did a very good job.

I'm very intrigued by this idea, and I'll check it out. I'm all for making pottery and glazing a more viable process, it will probably get in, but one thing that's nagging me is that glazed crafts can be worth some big money. Considering ash from vermin, clay, and fuel from batteries are all free. The only thing you have to lose is some time. So I might remove those at most.

What does rock chop axe mean?

Chop axe is a weapon in Corrosion, there is currently a bug in DF where metal items are displayed as 'rock' [name], so chances are you're just looking for a metal chop axe.

You can make them a the metalsmith forge -> weapons and ammunition -> material -> chop axe.

You could make a poisonous gas-rock thing found in clusters (whatever size) in certain soils and give them the same name and tile as the soil. You'd never know if what you're about to dig was toxic. It'd similar to current toxic rock layers, but reversed with small clusters of the hidden poison.

I'll probably be upfront with which soil is dangerous so the player can avoid if they would like. I could see that becoming kind of frustrating very fast.
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Pallbearer

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Re: =-~Corrosion~-= [v1.1.4] _NOW IN 34.05_
« Reply #1478 on: March 15, 2012, 03:28:54 am »

Quote
This seems like the most plausible route for several magical anomalies. I could have a couple different types of dangerous soil. Toxic sludge might be understandably rarer, but also more potent. It won't be deadly, probably on par with decomposed trash except worse.

My other idea was just a 'dense soil' that makes miners tired and need to sleep.

The dense soil idea sounds good too. It's very plausible that all the extra work of digging through tougher material would result in fatigue. :)

Perhaps you could mix the two? It really depends on how you feel about the polluted soil idea. :P

Quote
I have some notes on concrete, you were supposed to be able to create your own. Lime -> Sand -> Water, but all three pose problems, lime is basically limestone, which is not in the game. For sand, I'll have to create one reaction for each color of stand a minor work around, but still annoying nevertheless. And you can't have a reaction that requires water at the moment. Civ's don't respect modded reactions unless metal is the product, so that's why they don't trade them.

Ahh, I see. That's quite a pity. Perhaps a work-around could be that you need lye instead of water? I have no idea how you'd go about tackling the limestone issue though.
If we puzzle out a way to make it all work then I'm more than happy to do the sand reactions, provided that you give me a template to work with. ;)

Quote
Wow! You did a very good job.

I'm very intrigued by this idea, and I'll check it out. I'm all for making pottery and glazing a more viable process, it will probably get in, but one thing that's nagging me is that glazed crafts can be worth some big money. Considering ash from vermin, clay, and fuel from batteries are all free. The only thing you have to lose is some time. So I might remove those at most.

Thanks you, but like I said I really only copy pasted things. It was more time consuming than anything, really. :P

Ah, okay. I didn't even consider the glazing stuff. Yeah, I'd just leave them out to be honest.
The only reason I really thought that the battery powered kiln would be good is because I was getting frustrated when I was trying to construct a brick house. It's basically a waste of time if you're going to use charcoal. It's a lot easier to just use the planks instead of burning them first.


As a side-note, if you need help with anything that's tedious but easy then I'm your man. Just give me some instructions and I should be able to get everything done in a reasonable amount of time. That should free up some of your personal time. :)
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Psieye

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Re: =-~Corrosion~-= [v1.1.4] _NOW IN 34.05_
« Reply #1479 on: March 15, 2012, 08:07:18 am »

It might seem like that, but here's how the math looks on paper.

For bullets :

1 wood + potash* = Potassium Nitrate
Potassium Nitrate + charcoal = gunpowder
shells/bullets (= 1 metal bar) + 1 metal bar + gunpowder = bullet/shell

* I'm assuming you're getting the ash from vermin, not wood.

So you end up using 2 wood and 2 metal for 60 shells or 100 bullets.
4 wood/metal = 100 bolts/pellets
or 1 bone -> 5 pellets/bolts

So while bolts and pellets are more intensive on one resource. Bullets and Shells take more time and resources to build. I suppose I could make the gypsum -> sulfur -> gunpowder route a little tougher, but in order to get gypsum you either need dig into hard rock, which is in the caverns most time, or an embark with little soil and hard rock right under you, so you probably deserve an easier route at that point.
Actually, you have a reaction in your Burner workshop to turn wooden planks into charcoal. Also, I'm pretty sure the game won't care whether charcoal or coke is used so with a bituminous coal vein(s) on your embark... Strictly looking only at wood pellets, the maths is:

2 fuel + potash + some metal = 100 bullets
That's 0.5 wood logs (vermin ash, plank charcoal) or 0 wood (with Bit. coal). In my fort, I needed far more ash than the 'rate of vermin income' so I was burning logs for that but that's still 1.5 logs for 100 bullets. Both our calculations have assumed the player has metal bars at hand instead of having to smelt/melt it first (which adds more charcoal demand if no Bit. coal).


Hmm, I suppose if I think of the training ammo situation as "wooden pellets if you're fuel scarce, bullets if you're wood scarce" then this makes sense. It still feels wrong though that wooden pellets aren't the clearly economic way to train rifle skill, but that's just my opinion.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 10:50:25 am by Psieye »
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Congrats, Psieye. This is the first time I've seen a derailed thread get put back on the rails.

Pallbearer

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Re: =-~Corrosion~-= [v1.1.4] _NOW IN 34.05_
« Reply #1480 on: March 15, 2012, 10:35:22 am »

Quote
It still feels wrong though that wooden pellets aren't the clearly economic way to train rifle skill, but that's just my opinion.

I agree with Psieye; it feels a bit cheap when making bullets is more efficient than carving wooden pellets.

On the other hand, it does help prevent micromanaging your military so much. I don't really like the idea of manually swapping each individual weapon used in my military based on whether they are training or engaging in combat.

Maybe that can just be the price to pay for using a renewable resource when training instead of finite metal.
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IT 000

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Re: =-~Corrosion~-= [v1.1.4] _NOW IN 34.05_
« Reply #1481 on: March 15, 2012, 07:36:16 pm »

Quote
....Hmm, I suppose if I think of the training ammo situation as "wooden pellets if you're fuel scarce, bullets if you're wood scarce" then this makes sense. It still feels wrong though that wooden pellets aren't the clearly economic way to train rifle skill, but that's just my opinion.

I see where you're coming from though. 100 metal bolts/pellets are 2 logs (8 charcoal for ore and forging) and 4 metal bars.
Wooden bolts/pellets are better with only 4 logs, but still...
Bone is probably the best though, but due to a bug with clutter, it takes a long time to make even a small stack.

On one hand, bullets take longer to create, gathering the resources takes a while.
I agree, pellets and bolts should be easier to make, especially in bulk. The reaction would have to take longer or involve more resources though, especially since it takes long for you to mass produce guns. Wooden bolts/pellets are still very effective, especially against unarmored zombies.

Some ideas :
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Pellets should get reworked to be weaker, and slings should be weak as well (pistol skill maybe? Or the unused Blowgun skill), but these things weren't toys.
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crazyjake56

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Re: =-~Corrosion~-= [v1.1.4] _NOW IN 34.05_
« Reply #1482 on: March 15, 2012, 07:47:57 pm »

So do pellets also go to crossbows then or some other weapon?
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swordomatic

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Re: =-~Corrosion~-= [v1.1.4] _NOW IN 34.05_
« Reply #1483 on: March 15, 2012, 09:54:44 pm »

Pellets are used by the pneumatic rifle and pneumatic pistol.

Also, I'm getting a bug. My infected humans seem to act more like vampires than actual 'Nom eat your brains' zombies. Is that normal?
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IT 000

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Re: =-~Corrosion~-= [v1.1.4] _NOW IN 34.05_
« Reply #1484 on: March 16, 2012, 12:33:19 am »

Also, I'm getting a bug. My infected humans seem to act more like vampires than actual 'Nom eat your brains' zombies. Is that normal?

Infected people will obviously try to hide it as long as they can.

This is mostly a kludge though. Research on this kind of stuff is relatively new, so I'm pioneering new territory here.

Hopefully they'll be 'vampire-like' early on, then shortly after their first kill, they'll change.
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