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Author Topic: Roller's Block (RTD Brainstorming Thread) (HAPPY LATE BIRTHDAY) (Derm is 5k)  (Read 729584 times)

OceanSoul

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If that's the case, they might just need to adjust their grip, fix that slippery spot out of it, and resume normally.
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Work on a potential forum game for my return to Bay12. Figure out parts that puzzled me before. Find more things to figure out that I can't. Work on another game instead of solving them. Get distracted and stop working. Remember it a week or two later. Remember I'm still on hiatus. Illogically, Be too ashamed to return yet. Repeat ad nauseam.

Finally have a game completely ready. Wait a week before posting it out of laziness.

Mr.Zero

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Hello folks,
I have a couple questions about your experiences in playing RTD's. I'd love it if you could take a moment of your time and help me with answering these questions. There is no underlying motif for this except curiosity and see if I can draw a conclusion and perhaps adapt some of my ideas.

    General
    • What's the average lifespan of an RTD(Experiences include both player and GM)? And are there any obvious correlations with long/short lived RTD's such as player interest, RTD complexity, GM motivation,etc.
    • During the game do you expect additional interaction from the GM towards the players outside of providing turns? If so, what kind?
    • Regarding your preferences in RTD's. What do you look for in an RTD? Good back story, GM fame(Maybe you know the dude), interest(Sci-fi, fantasy, video game subject such as Monster hunter or starcraft, realism), etc.
    • Do you consider a complex system of stats/combat/status to be off-putting in general or as long as you don't have to do too much yourself?
    • How much do you (dis)like the following?
      • Class-based systems (EX: DND classes)
      • Skill-based systems (Where your 'class' is defined by your selection of skills rather than just a class choice.
      • No skill systems (Basically you roll a dice for everything and the result rarely changes outside of special occasions)
      • Race selection (Do you prefer that PC's should all be human for w/e reason or that an extensive list of races should exist)
      • RTD difficulty (Should the GM be harsh on players if they choose poorly, or should there be always some kind of escape/way out. Or does it depend on the type/setting of the RTD?)
    • Do you prefer to have to spend long amounts of time (30+ mins) on reading/writing/conversing in a RTD or short? Or does this depend on the RTD setting?
    (Applicable when you've ran a RTD)
    • What part of designing your RTD, did you struggle the most with?
    • When you've provided additional content like extra back story, did you notice that the players made use of this or liked it?
    • If you've ever rebooted a RTD, why did you do it?
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    Harry Baldman

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    Average lifespan: 2 weeks or thereabouts. Long-lived RTDs tend to not be very complex, or acquire their complexity along the way a la D22 or Einsteinian Roulette. Obviously an RTD isn't going to last if players aren't interested or a GM isn't motivated.

    Interaction: it's better not to do out-of-turn interaction aside from crucial clarification because it really does slow things down a great deal as well as messes up the turn-action-turn cycle.

    RTD preferences: a GM I know and/or something I can make a funny character for.

    Stats: can usually do without them, but they can be fun to try and make builds with. It's a point of attachment to your character that's usually superior to backstory.

    System preferences: class-based and skill-based systems are functionally equivalent for the most part. I tend to prefer class-based because they work much better with prompts (the typical "your character's profession in 2 words" kind of deal). No skill systems tend to be unpleasantly arbitrary. RTD difficulty should veer toward being easier because miscommunication is really easy in games (consider, for instance, the three clue rule in investigative games). Meatgrinders are essentially shit for the most part.

    RTD time demands: be concise.

    RTD design problems: keeping to the original good idea instead of adopting a newer, much worse idea. Coming up with things to do beyond the immediate starting situation.

    Backstory: don't put it into a giant post next to the first one, nobody wants to read that shit. Don't put it into the first one either. Parcel it out in-game as needed.

    Rebooting: because I (incorrectly) thought I could do it better the second time around. Rebooting something is usually a terrible idea when you can just make a different game instead.
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    Whisperling

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    -Snip-

    All right, here goes.

    1. Not long at all, in the majority of cases. There are always a few which have run for long periods of time, though.

    As for the second part... well, that's a pretty complex question right there. Of the factors you listed, GM motivation is the kicker. It's why the majority of RTDs die as soon as they do- GMs simply realize that running a game it a lot of work, and activity gradually drops off due to procrastination or what-have-you.

    I agree with Harry Baldman on the complexity point. It's good to have something easy for players to connect to, at least to begin with, and whatever is gained along the way is usually quite welcome.

    Player interest is very rarely an issue, but it does occasionally rear its head. To be perfectly honest, I couldn't tell you too much about what causes it- just haven't seen it often enough.

    2. I certainly don't expect it, no. If it's there, it's probably a comment on a player action or the like.

    3. Personally, it's mostly a matter of interest. However, long-running games or those with a GM I know is reliable do look more appealing, since the game is less likely to die the moment we start to play.

    4. Yeah, if I have to deal with it myself. If the GM wants to run it on their end, it's fine by me, but I'm lazy and I don't really want to spend oodles of time keeping track of numbers and/or my precise plan of action.

    5.
    5.1-5.3: Fine with whatever here, as long as it doesn't require too much micromanagement.
    5.4: It varies a bit. Good if the whole thing is done well, potentially a big turn-off if it isn't.
    5.5: Anything is OK, as long as it makes sense and you don't feel as if you're wasting massive amounts of effort.

    6. If I have to spend a half hour dealing with your game, sorry, but I'm out the door. I've done it by choice in games that I truly enjoy, but you need to have something really nice going before I'm willing to put in that sort of effort.



    Haven't really run an RTD, per se, but I have done a pretty similar thing on another forum.

    1. Personally, I've always struggled with the amount of detail and/or planning to put into the premise and world. I have a tendency to spoil things by making them a tad too complex for what they are, and I'm still learning how to find a middle ground between that and the truly generic.

    2. Some people like it, some people don't. Never really gotten a clear, concise response on this, but I can't imagine that lore is a bad thing as long as you make it clear that it isn't required reading.

    3. Never done it. I can imagine doing something related and/or similar to a dead RPG, but rebooting it seems... wrong to me, somehow. If I've made a game that I'm truly invested in, I'll either continue it or end it with as much grace as is possible. I don't love treading that same territory again, and necroing it or creating a carbon copy does seem a bit like disturbing the dead.
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    Nakéen

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    Quote
    What's the average lifespan of an RTD(Experiences include both player and GM)? And are there any obvious correlations with long/short lived RTD's such as player interest, RTD complexity, GM motivation,etc.
    I will consider that long-runner RTD are not concerned by this question.

    Even then, I have difficulties answering to the question. To me the trends would be:
    Short-Lived RTDs: average of 2 weeks.
    Medium-Lived RTDs: average of 1 month and a half.

    The life of a RTD is a whole, but to me the most defining factor is the GM's motivation. Even if the players are motivated, a RTD with a half-motivated GM won't last long. While in the reverse, a motivated GM will try to find ways to breath life into its RTD, or even put it on life-support in extreme cases.

    That's another subject though.

    Complexity is a bit unrelated to me, as Complexity is subject to player's taste. Simple RTDs will attract certain players, while more complex and thought through RTDs will attract another kind of players.


    Quote
    During the game do you expect additional interaction from the GM towards the players outside of providing turns? If so, what kind?
    *looks awkwardly around*

    I am pretty sure any player expect the GM to interact with the players about the status of upcoming turns, or possibility of delay.
    Everyone wants a GM who communicate with the players, as it means the GM can be trusted. Being left in the dark as a player isn't always enjoyable.


    Quote
    Regarding your preferences in RTD's. What do you look for in an RTD? Good back story, GM fame(Maybe you know the dude), interest(Sci-fi, fantasy, video game subject such as Monster hunter or starcraft, realism), etc.

    I'm a sucker for fantasy RTDs.
    I don't particularly look for good backstory, but of course it is always a plus in my book. RTDs (and RPGs in general) are very flexible about backstory, so I don't really judge the book according to its cover.

    Who know, good surprises could happen anytime.


    Quote
    Do you consider a complex system of stats/combat/status to be off-putting in general or as long as you don't have to do too much yourself?

    Seeing a complex system of stats/combats/status makes me first go "woah", then go "mmh".
    A complex system means the GM has an idea in mind, and that alone makes it very interesting to me. But a complex system also means more tracking and generally longer turns, which can sometime lead to a GM collapsing over its game's own complexity.

    Conclusion: not off-putting. Just worried for GM.

    Quote
    How much do you (dis)like the following?
    Quote
    Class-based systems (EX: DND classes)

    I don't mind classes as long as they don't lock/force yourself too much in one role.
    I like flexibility and imagination overall, and if I were to make an analogy, I like classes that act as a "template" rather than "box".

    Quote
    Skill-based systems (Where your 'class' is defined by your selection of skills rather than just a class choice.
    I like this, it gives flexibility and opens up a lot of possibilities.

    Quote
    No skill systems (Basically you roll a dice for everything and the result rarely changes outside of special occasions)
    Mixed feelings. Pure rolling is fine when the setting is whacky and lighthearted, but when there are more serious "stakes" in a game, it feels harsh to know everything could backfire from a single dice roll you have no power over at all.

    But there is beauty in that too, and I like that too. How screwy can the dice be.


    Quote
    Race selection (Do you prefer that PC's should all be human for w/e reason or that an extensive list of races should exist)
    Depend on the setting of course. I like races when they make sense, it opens up a good amount of roleplaying possibilities.


    Quote
    RTD difficulty (Should the GM be harsh on players if they choose poorly, or should there be always some kind of escape/way out. Or does it depend on the type/setting of the RTD?)

    RTD difficulty is a balance the GM must play with according to the setting. In all cases, constant overwhelming odds against the players invariably lead to bad things. Players need to feel they have a chance too, else it turns into a one-sided game with the GM bullying poor Players.

    Too easy is generally much less dangerous, but can lead to players becoming less involved in their characters. If they know they don't run a single risk, roleplay will probably rocket right through the roof.


    Quote
    Do you prefer to have to spend long amounts of time (30+ mins) on reading/writing/conversing in a RTD or short? Or does this depend on the RTD setting?
    It depends. If I'm in love with the RTD setting and the GM writing style, I wouldn't mind 30min-1h of reading a RTD turn.

    Basically, as long as it doesn't feel like a chore, the amount of time doesn't matter. And it depends too, if the GM drops interesting plot and worldbuilding bombs at every corner, I can't help but savor them.

    Quote
    What part of designing your RTD, did you struggle the most with?

    I have only ran semi-minimalistic RTDs so I didn't struggle that much during design. The hardest to me would be to adapt custom rules in such a way that the RTD feel doesn't disappear.


    Quote
    When you've provided additional content like extra back story, did you notice that the players made use of this or liked it?

    I did, but of course it depends on players. Some are keen on using every bit of lore available to them, while some will just brush it off and continue with their antics.

    Quote
    If you've ever rebooted a RTD, why did you do it?

    I did revive my RTD, which could be seen as a reboot in some way.

    Because I'm sentimental and overly attached to what I create. And I never really wanted to go into hiatus in the first place, and circumstances forced me to, a bit.

    Basically, because of unfinished business. It hurts to leave unfinished business behind, especially after planning a lot of events over.
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    FallacyofUrist

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    Ideas(both inspired by Tomasque's mafia games, so thanks to him):

    RTD Marathon: Players compete in several sequential RTDs each based around a specific thing, trying to accrue the most victory points. Completing special objectives may give rewards for future rounds.

    Exquisite Corps: Players design each other's character sheets using procedure detailed in spoiler, then take mission to do something or other, likely also designed by other players.
    Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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    OceanSoul

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    For the first, you might want to give some degree of constance, something that make the RTDs seem like one whole thing rather than a bunch of separate mini-RTDs. Will part of the characters carry over? Can they gain things to carry over with them as the game progresses? Is there a plot that connects the games? Is it advanced by playing the games? Things like that.
    Logged
    Work on a potential forum game for my return to Bay12. Figure out parts that puzzled me before. Find more things to figure out that I can't. Work on another game instead of solving them. Get distracted and stop working. Remember it a week or two later. Remember I'm still on hiatus. Illogically, Be too ashamed to return yet. Repeat ad nauseam.

    Finally have a game completely ready. Wait a week before posting it out of laziness.

    NJW2000

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    Interesting. The latter involves a fair bit of faffing about before the game, which sets off alarm bells ringing for me at least (though better GMs can deal with it).

    The former seems a little questionable given how hard it is to get several players and finish one RTD with them, but certainly doable. Keeping it tight and on-schedule would be important.
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    Person

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    I've put off answering this for far too long.

    During the game do you expect additional interaction from the GM towards the players outside of providing turns? If so, what kind?
    I generally try to answer questions and concerns, and like when other GM's do. However, too much interaction can make it hard to figure out when a thread is "really" updated, and where in the post pile that update is.
    Regarding your preferences in RTD's. What do you look for in an RTD? Good back story, GM fame(Maybe you know the dude), interest(Sci-fi, fantasy, video game subject such as Monster hunter or starcraft, realism), etc.
    Subject is pretty important. Harder to get engaged otherwise even if that subject is simply YOU AT FINAL BOSS. GM history is nice to have, but everyone starts somewhere.
    Do you consider a complex system of stats/combat/status to be off-putting in general or as long as you don't have to do too much yourself?
    I like a little complexity. Most GMs just get in over their head. Complex systems tend to have a lot more rolls, and more rolls means you need more motivation. That's a large part of why complex systems tend to die.

    How much do you (dis)like the following?

    Class-based systems (EX: DND classes)
    Generally indifferent at best.
    Skill-based systems (Where your 'class' is defined by your selection of skills rather than just a class choice.
    Very much like these.
    No skill systems (Basically you roll a dice for everything and the result rarely changes outside of special occasions)
    Minimalism has a certain charm, and I enjoy the return to fkrm it represents. However, the system does have its own problems and quirks that can be offputting as both a player and gm.
    Race selection (Do you prefer that PC's should all be human for w/e reason or that an extensive list of races should exist)
    Never cared about races much. The only real issue I have is that certain races are just BEST at certain skillsets. As a result,  if you want to do x thing well you have to be y thing, or else it just isn't optimal. Of course the problem with that complaint is that racial differences make sense so yeah.
    RTD difficulty (Should the GM be harsh on players if they choose poorly, or should there be always some kind of escape/way out. Or does it depend on the type/setting of the RTD?)
    It depends. At some point you have to say "If you insist", and hit players with consequences if they do dumb things. Otherwise they never feel like they can never lose, and that can kill investment.
    Do you prefer to have to spend long amounts of time (30+ mins) on reading/writing/conversing in a RTD or short? Or does this depend on the RTD setting?
    Long RTD turns mean I can't read as many different games. Quality is a quantity all its own though.

    (Applicable when you've ran a RTD)

    What part of designing your RTD, did you struggle the most with?
    Usually the setting and plot. Otherwise, mostly balancing thing so that players have a good variety of viable options.
    When you've provided additional content like extra back story, did you notice that the players made use of this or liked it?
    I'm not very good at that yet. I think a few people might appreciate the bit and pieces I've messed around with though. I generally try to keep it short.
    If you've ever rebooted a RTD, why did you do it?
    I mostly reboot other people's RTD games, because I'm an uncreative bastard. I always get permission though. I generally do it because I really like the concept.

    Hope that helps.

    As for the above discussion, I'd mention endless rtd but that was a trainwreck I'm sure everyone involved wants to forget about. Still, the format might hold something of value. I'm rooting for ya.
    « Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 05:33:47 am by Person »
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    Digital Hellhound

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    Interesting questions! I haven't played or run an RTD in some time, so memories may be clouded.

    Spoiler: RTD Answer Hour (click to show/hide)
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    FallacyofUrist

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    I've finalized my loot generator thingy. Technically speaking, the test is still ongoing, but given the eldritch abomination, I think we can call that one.

    Now the question is, should I run that or RTD Marathon?
    ~~~
    Will part of the characters carry over? Can they gain things to carry over with them as the game progresses?
    Special rewards for optional objectives. So yes.

    Is there a plot that connects the games? Is it advanced by playing the games? Things like that.
    I was thinking the games would all take place in the same world, but over a long period of time. Round one could be ancient history, then we go to the enlightenment... or something like that. History might end up changed if RTD shenanigans get crazy enough.
    ~~~
    Alternatively, I could reboot SCP League. Or Auction Deathmatch. I really need to stop leaving behind good ideas.
    « Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 09:45:13 pm by FallacyofUrist »
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    Person

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    I'd personally like to see the SCP game make a return. I liked the auction game quite a bit, but we've probably got a few too many deathmatches at the moment.

    Lately, I've been staring at the For Science! stuff I've had lying around for ages. I've simplied things considerably from back when I tested it. Building the setting is going to take awhile though, and I'm not crazy enough to try and run 3 games at once, especially with my irl situation right now. Digital Hellhound, care to give it another go maybe?

    I've been also working on Walmart Apocalypse as of late, in terms of building a store map. If you aren't aware, it happens to be a setting 4chan built way back and never really did anything with. Somehow it appeals to me to a rediculous degree. But again lol3gamesatonce.
    « Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 08:37:54 pm by Person »
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    TheBiggerFish

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    Oooh, SCPs.
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    _DivideByZero_

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    • What's the average lifespan of an RTD(Experiences include both player and GM)? And are there any obvious correlations with long/short lived RTD's such as player interest, RTD complexity, GM motivation,etc.
    Mine are usually a few months, but it varies a lot based on the GM. The biggest factor is GM interest, but player interest is also important. If I feel that the players aren't having fun, it cuts into my own interest in updating, even if I have important plot planned.

    • During the game do you expect additional interaction from the GM towards the players outside of providing turns? If so, what kind?
    Not really. Answering questions at the top of each turn is good enough for most things. Sometimes there's a discussion about mechanics and such--that's what OOC threads are usually for.

    • Regarding your preferences in RTD's. What do you look for in an RTD? Good back story, GM fame(Maybe you know the dude), interest(Sci-fi, fantasy, video game subject such as Monster hunter or starcraft, realism), etc.
    I look for something I can make an interesting character in, usually with not-too-restrictive rules.

    • Do you consider a complex system of stats/combat/status to be off-putting in general or as long as you don't have to do too much yourself?
    There's always a level of off-putting to complex mechanics. The question is whether those mechanics are interesting (like destructible parts in a mecha game). I like mechanics that give freedom, though, and I never really liked the standard "opposed rolls with bonuses" method of dealing with combat.

    Quote
    • How much do you (dis)like the following?
      • Class-based systems (EX: DND classes)
      • Skill-based systems (Where your 'class' is defined by your selection of skills rather than just a class choice.
      • No skill systems (Basically you roll a dice for everything and the result rarely changes outside of special occasions)
      • Race selection (Do you prefer that PC's should all be human for w/e reason or that an extensive list of races should exist)
      • RTD difficulty (Should the GM be harsh on players if they choose poorly, or should there be always some kind of escape/way out. Or does it depend on the type/setting of the RTD?)

    Classes: If there's a wide variety of classes it veers into the "complex mechanics that aren't interesting" section because the majority of those classes won't ever be seen in a game. If there's only a few classes I'd prefer them to be general, and not something like you see in MMORPGs where every class has a grand total of one category of weapon.

    Quote
    • Do you prefer to have to spend long amounts of time (30+ mins) on reading/writing/conversing in a RTD or short? Or does this depend on the RTD setting?
    Now that I'm working I appreciate brevity... but it depends on how long between updates. I always feel compelled to try and match the GM with a similar amount of writing if feasible, which makes long turns a little harder to stomach.

    Quote
    • What part of designing your RTD, did you struggle the most with?
    Finding a way to mix in the intended storyline without infodumps/railroading.

    Quote
    • When you've provided additional content like extra back story, did you notice that the players made use of this or liked it?
    Most people don't usually read the backstory in my games. :(
    Well, I can't say that, but perhaps its an issue with me not giving people enough to work with.

    Quote
    • If you've ever rebooted a RTD, why did you do it?
    Usually just to reuse backstory/plot, with fresh new characters.
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    Digital Hellhound

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    I've been staring at the For Science! stuff I've had lying around for ages. I've simplied things considerably from back when I tested it. Building the setting is going to take awhile though, and I'm not crazy enough to try and run 3 games at once, especially with my irl situation right now. Digital Hellhound, care to give it another go maybe?

    Heh, I ain't got the time either. I hope you do end up running it at some point, would follow it for sure.
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