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Author Topic: Roller's Block (RTD Brainstorming Thread) (HAPPY LATE BIRTHDAY) (Derm is 5k)  (Read 739501 times)

Dermonster

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Thought I'd post the Example I gave Draig as far as 'Color ans style' goes.
Let me show you.


In the Beginning, there was Void
From the void, came Order.
Order watched over nothing, and became everything.
But Order became bored.
And from Order sprung Chaos.

(These two lines
are unintelligible)

Order wished to return to Absolute Order.
Chaos wished to bring about Absolute Chaos.
Order Hated Chaos, and Chaos hated Order.
And thus they began to war.
Chaos disrupted the Void and created Fire, hurling through nothing in great spheres.
Order, affronted, created Water to snuff the flame.
Chaos created Earth, circling around the flames to soak the water.
Enraged, Order begat Air to erode the earth.
Laughing, Chaos made Lightning to divide the Air.
Order forged Metal to disperse the lightning.
Chaos spread Ice to brittle the metal.

And from all this, sprung Life.

Life gathered its siblings of Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Lightning, Metal, Ice, (Unintelligible) and (Unintelligible)
And together, they struck down Chaos and Order, sealing them away in the ninth moon of a giant of gas, circling a giant blue star.

(Four lines are Unintelligible)

The Eight remaining Primordial Elementals then hid on the prison, spreading their children across the land.

This is how the world came to be.

-Ancient stone carving found within the deepest layers of the Rift


Elements


And then you tell them what situation they'll be spawning in, show the character sheet, and then an author note.

This specific example is from a mental world I've been imagining for a year or two now, and is really more suited for a single player type of thing.

It's more meant to be a 'hook' than a proper story introduction, which would happen in (pre?)character creation/Turn 0.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 12:25:57 am by Dermonster »
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"Y'know, my favorite thing about being a hero is that it gives you all kinds of narrative justification to just slay any ol' jerk who gets in the way - Black Mage.
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"Dammit Derm!" - You, if I'm doing it right.
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Andres

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Thought I'd post the Example I gave Draig as far as 'Color ans style' goes.
I'm pretty sure I'm the one who made a request for clarification. In any case, thanks for giving me an example to work with.
And also more fantasy games that actually hook me in the opening. Some color and effort and style.
By 'colour' do you mean metaphorically or literally?

Just... please don't make me make a character out of whole cloth. I can't do it, and if you force me I'll either not play or just make Derm.


Nothing wrong with that in and of itself. I just don't like it that you want the GM to create a new and interesting world for you out of whole cloth when you don't even want to give them one character.
Characters tend to get developed over time as players are met with choices and they have to decide what they're character are going to do. You can write whatever bio you want, but someone without a bio will develop a personality as soon as they're required to talk, if not sooner. This is only a problem in SGs where multiple players - and thus multiple personalities - control one character. Moreover, it's the GM's job to create things while it's the players job to interact with and change. If players wanted to create they'd be GMing - not playing.
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Kadzar

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I'd say you don't necessarily have to delineate the act of creating as just GM or player responsibility. If you're asking for a backstory, or really anything about a character, you're accepting what the players put down as a thing that is true in your world; otherwise you wouldn't accept their sheet. You might even want to let players know that their reality-creating powers are explicit in character creation, though limited.
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Digital Hellhound

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I'll be honest, Derm - if it's a game where I'm asking for a bio, it's already not something where I'm looking for you as a player. There's fun to be had in a For Science! or any of the games you mentioned, and your playstyle works wonders in them, but there are also people who like deeper and more thought-out games which benefit from player commitment from the start.

Letting players write their bios often adds to your worlds, too, gives you personal plot hooks and ideas to weave in and makes a stronger bond between GM and player. Even if the GM has the right to not accept these ideas.

Bios made at game start don't have to be absolute, strict rules for your character. You might realize you want to take them into a different direction, personality-wise, or explore some previously unmentioned aspect of their backstory - and I think that's fine. Characters develop, that's only good.

On a related note, I'm working on a scifi Transhuman Solar System idea myself, and have a worry that there's just too much information and concepts that the players would need to know to write accurate bios. Nobody wants to read a wall-of-text first post, but just a very general overview might not be enough. Still, I think I can just include the core ideas of the world and its factions and give the players a fair amount of creative freedom.

I'll likely make a post about it here later - influences range from Dan Simmons to The Culture to Hannu Rajaniemi's Quantum Thief-setting.
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Dermonster

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I'll be honest, Derm - if it's a game where I'm asking for a bio, it's already not something where I'm looking for you as a player. There's fun to be had in a For Science! or any of the games you mentioned, and your playstyle works wonders in them, but there are also people who like deeper and more thought-out games which benefit from player commitment from the start.

Your assessment and vote of confidence is accurate but hurtful :(
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I can do anything I want, as long as I accept the consequences.
"Y'know, my favorite thing about being a hero is that it gives you all kinds of narrative justification to just slay any ol' jerk who gets in the way - Black Mage.
"The bulk of [Derm]'s atrocities seem to stem from him doing things that [Magic] doesn't actually do." - TvTropes
"Dammit Derm!" - You, if I'm doing it right.
Moved to SufficientVelocity / Spacebattles.

Draignean

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Nothing wrong with that in and of itself. I just don't like it that you want the GM to create a new and interesting world for you out of whole cloth when you don't even want to give them one character.
Characters tend to get developed over time as players are met with choices and they have to decide what they're character are going to do. You can write whatever bio you want, but someone without a bio will develop a personality as soon as they're required to talk, if not sooner. This is only a problem in SGs where multiple players - and thus multiple personalities - control one character. Moreover, it's the GM's job to create things while it's the players job to interact with and change. If players wanted to create they'd be GMing - not playing.

The first part of this is absolutely true, but that characterization is limited to the situation. Bios anchor a character, and they, as DH noted, provide a GM with hooks to manipulate and deepen the story. Any object that interacts gains a personality, heck, my computer has a personality, but characters have history- portions of their past that will inform their future. A character has a face and a body, and that face and body is more than a collection of lines, curves, and colors. It is animated, shaped, and scarred by the things the character has done, a living monument to their past. Letting things develop as they happen will characterize someone, eventually, but it happens slowly, crudely, and can easily end up with the character being an extension of the player's personality rather than a new person inspired by an element of the player. 

The second of your assertions I cannot support. The player can (and should) create, as surely and effectively as the GM does. The world of the GM is a labyrinth, it is a monolith that twists and turns through reality, its existence calculated to entice the player, and its deceptively apparent structure designed to disguise the final destination until the last turn is taken. Yet, without player interaction, it's a bunch of rock walls and ivy. Players create sub-realities within the game, they make the choices and determine the path they take. Even if all roads lead to the same exit, the path is what is important. Furthermore, the world the GM doesn't control how the characters feel, and that is monumentally important to the creation of a story. Are the players forced down the path they've taken, blackmailed and coerced into a life of murder and lies? Or are they gleeful psychopaths like Derm, setting fire to a man simply because he might be flammable? The answer to this question changes the story and shapes the world. Think of it as carving, the GM actually makes the material of reality, gives the players a big block of it, and tells them what kind of strokes they can use to shape it. The final shape of the carving is determined by the players, moderated as infrequently as possible by the GM. The material and the methods are the domain of GM, the shape and meaning of the piece are the domains of the players.
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Harry Baldman

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I have to say, I've already become a fan of not having bios in character sheets for my games, or at least very short ones if I do. A bio is essentially a very unsubtle prompt for the player to explain who their character is, and who it most appeals to is people who like to create elaborate stories all on their own, even if they're mostly completely irrelevant to gameplay and even the plot in general. I like filling out character sheets with bios specifically because I get to write a story in them, and further gameplay doesn't quite factor into any part of it. It's why the 'deeper and more thought-out' games appeal to me despite the fact that the vastly overwhelming majority of them never go anywhere before dying off quietly. Writing the character sheet captures the exciting feeling of starting to write a cool story you had in mind (or, rather, what could be the beginning of a cool story you have in mind), and the guilt of inevitably failing to finish it when your enthusiasm peters out falls on the GM.

Also, at least one of my characters with a lacking biography (his bio was literally 'he's from the woods') has proven one of the most fun to play as. Nominally the bio helps you decide what sort of character you're actually playing, like a decompressed version of the character concept, but it's also rather often that the bio just seems to exist all on its own, disconnected from the game. There's also some people, myself included, who can make up a whole lot of varying character biographies, but most often just end up playing one of one to four of their standard character archetypes in the end (in my case, "normal", "goofy", "deadpan", or either of the three hybridized with "weird"). And it's not unusual that a character concept or backstory is just plain irrelevant for the game, either because the GM can't be bothered to jam it in there somewhere or because the player isn't willing/able to convincingly make it part of their character. Not having a bio in the first place can help a character define itself within the bounds of the situation of the game.

Another thing a bio measures is how into the game you are, and whether the setting provided stimulates your imagination. This, I suppose, is the most relevant function of the bio, as it's better to have players who are actually into the setting and spirit of the thing than ones that are not.

And additionally judging games by biographies lets you exercise extreme nepotism with impunity, though I nevertheless try to mix up the player roster for my games.

A very good way to avoid overly wordy and pointless biographies while achieving essentially the same thing is, I've found, to just phrase the character sheet in a non-traditional way (as a series of questions aimed at discovering your character concept or something similar). It takes a bit of fine-tuning, however. Or just set a low word count limit on the biography in order to stress getting to the point already (the most extreme example of getting to the point is just asking you to supply a name/class combination).
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 09:09:06 am by Harry Baldman »
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Andres

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Moreover, it's the GM's job to create things while it's the players job to interact with and change. If players wanted to create they'd be GMing - not playing.
Going by your analogy, it would certainly be the job of the players to carve and shape the material the GM sets for them as they see fit within boundaries, but it is not their job to add in new material just in an attempt to match what the GM has given.
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Urist Arrhenius

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-snip-
This. Honestly, I'd much rather find out about the character as the game progresses. Otherwise it's often just a wall of text contest, with the people putting the most syllables on paper getting in.

Also, characters are often selected for their oddity, which is cool and all, but it can result in combinations of characters which are impossible to put together in any sensible way except in the most minimalist of settings. This isn't a complaint with character sheets in concept, more with the trends they promote.
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monk12

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Another thing a bio measures is how into the game you are, and whether the setting provided stimulates your imagination. This, I suppose, is the most relevant function of the bio, as it's better to have players who are actually into the setting and spirit of the thing than ones that are not.
Letting players write their bios often adds to your worlds, too, gives you personal plot hooks and ideas to weave in and makes a stronger bond between GM and player. Even if the GM has the right to not accept these ideas.

Bios made at game start don't have to be absolute, strict rules for your character. You might realize you want to take them into a different direction, personality-wise, or explore some previously unmentioned aspect of their backstory - and I think that's fine. Characters develop, that's only good.


This pretty well sums up my stance on the issue.

A GM for any gaming group wants to attract people who will like the stuff they create; if players decide that the way the game is developing isn't what they thought they'd get from the OP (which as Derm said should indeed have color and style to help avoid this, and I'm pretty sure we already had a conversation in here about what a good OP should bring to the table) then they'll bail on the game, which will probably end it before its time, which is not an eventuality you typically allow knowingly when you're setting up the game in the first place. A well constructed Bio sheet will help the GM find people who will like what the game has to offer in terms of story/setting/interactions.

If a GM is looking for a game where characters develop (or rather, where they will develop independently of the GM putting words in their mouth like they were Barbie dolls in his own private universe,) then they'll be looking for people who will play their characters with more than a single bolded six word action. When the GM is creating a game where they would like the players to supply/create a bit of fluff in each post to enrich the collective game experience and the world, they want to find players who will actually do that; a short description of the character they want to play lets the GM know that the player is willing to put in the effort to write at least that much on behalf of the game.

Or in other words:

This. Honestly, I'd much rather find out about the character as the game progresses. Otherwise it's often just a wall of text contest, with the people putting the most syllables on paper getting in.

Yeah, speaking as a GM, so would I. The thing is, when I ask for a bio I'm not asking for a "wall of text" contest or a "make the wackiest character" contest (well, unless that's the point, anyway) - usually I'm just looking for players who are willing to add a bit of flavor to the pot for everyone to play with, ideally while latching onto some of the color I put in the OP and riffing off of that. Maybe the stuff in the bio never comes up, or the player develops in a way that flat contradicts the original vision; that's fine, and frankly it happens all the time. Even if it wasn't how I originally envisioned that aspect of the setting playing out, if it's cool and interesting I'll roll with it; that's why I'm running a game and not just writing a story myself. I just want to see that you will put that sort of effort into the game when it is appropriate to do so, and that the flavor you contribute will complement what is already in the pot.

I'll be honest, Derm - if it's a game where I'm asking for a bio, it's already not something where I'm looking for you as a player. There's fun to be had in a For Science! or any of the games you mentioned, and your playstyle works wonders in them, but there are also people who like deeper and more thought-out games which benefit from player commitment from the start.

Your assessment and vote of confidence is accurate but hurtful :(

I wouldn't say it's a bad thing, it just depends on the type of game being created. If I'm creating a fluff-heavy game, then I'm looking to basically do a lot of freeform writing with some parameters beyond my control to give it structure and constraint (in much the same way I'd choose to obey the rules of Haiku or Iambic Pentameter if I were a poet instead.) The more rules I set up at the start, the more control I sacrifice over what I create.

I retain the most control in Minimalist styles, since in those I have maybe some setting rules I set up at the start and then player actions and the capriciousness of the dice- I don't expect a lot of RP or fluff to be supplied by the players, so that's a burden of fluff I accept in exchange for the freedom to put words and feelings in the "mind" of the character, in the void where the player didn't put them. If I want to write with less control over the game and story, then I give more agency to the players- they get to decide how their characters interact with themselves and their environment through fluff and RP, and at the extreme of that scale I let the players be masters of their domains (e.g if the story fluff calls for the finest dwarven cuisine to be served I don't just fart out Plump Helmets or whatever, I ask the dwarf character what dwarves eat and find a way to weave the answer into the rest of the setting.)

Agency in the story is a responsibility; if I give it to someone who doesn't want it they'll have less fun, and if they don't shoulder that burden then everyone will have less fun. I'd rather know whether the burden of a paragraph of fluff per post is more than you want to deal with before the game starts, and a bio sheet tells me that.


I think we've run into an interesting sub-discussion of "How to Make a Good OP" here- namely...


...wow, okay, if this was a Wall of Text competition I think I just won :P

Digital Hellhound

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Fantastic guide post as always, monk. I maybe stick to the 'terse categories' method of apps too much, myself. I oughta branch out next time.

@Derm: Don't get me wrong. If I was making a game in that style in which you're fantastic at, you'd be at the top of my list. Guaranteed madness and mayhem for all your needs. Hilariously overpowered reality warping devices at start and whatnot.
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Dermonster

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@Derm: Don't get me wrong. If I was making a game in that style in which you're fantastic at, you'd be at the top of my list. Guaranteed madness and mayhem for all your needs. Hilariously overpowered reality warping devices at start and whatnot.

Thank you for your consideration.

I just seems like the kind of game I like just slowly died out over the past couple years. Adwarf's Roll to be a hero is the only RTD (Perplexicon is different) that I've actually enrolled in recently, and it's going fantastically.
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"Y'know, my favorite thing about being a hero is that it gives you all kinds of narrative justification to just slay any ol' jerk who gets in the way - Black Mage.
"The bulk of [Derm]'s atrocities seem to stem from him doing things that [Magic] doesn't actually do." - TvTropes
"Dammit Derm!" - You, if I'm doing it right.
Moved to SufficientVelocity / Spacebattles.

AoshimaMichio

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<snip/>

I had extremely hard time reading this. Not because it is long (which it certainly is), but because my subconscious started throwing ideas for new game. And just when I already got one running...

How would people feel about game where there's nothing known at beginning? Where you have to even discover (simple) character sheet? Where you have entire world to discover?
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Harry Baldman

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How would people feel about game where there's nothing known at beginning? Where you have to even discover (simple) character sheet? Where you have entire world to discover?

It's been done, and the problem is that there's no real draw in the OP if you really have to discover everything. It sort of works as a minimalist game, and even then it's not terribly engaging a lot of the time.

And a very nice guide, too. Gives me something to think about.
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AoshimaMichio

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How would people feel about game where there's nothing known at beginning? Where you have to even discover (simple) character sheet? Where you have entire world to discover?

It's been done, and the problem is that there's no real draw in the OP if you really have to discover everything. It sort of works as a minimalist game, and even then it's not terribly engaging a lot of the time.

And a very nice guide, too. Gives me something to think about.

Of course it is done. Everything I think of is either done or is already in progress. I'm unoriginal like that. Do you have a link or helpful keywords for search?
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