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Author Topic: Roller's Block (RTD Brainstorming Thread) (HAPPY LATE BIRTHDAY) (Derm is 5k)  (Read 744965 times)

Draignean

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Promise self to design simple mechanics system.

Comes back with 6 base attributes, 15 derived attributes.

Conclusion: I am contractually incapable of making something straightforwards.

No offense, but from what I've seen you do that sounds fairly simple :P

I try not to be offended by the truth, but this is before I've added any sort of skill system.  :-\

I had the same problem with my new RTD. The base concept was buying upgrades using points and using them in the arena and it grew pretty much immediately after I introduced stats.

Yeah. You add one thing, and that reveals an interesting way the system could grow and expand, so you add another thing. This repeats the process until you're looking at the system equivalent of a Goldberg machine.
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IronyOwl

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Promise self to design simple mechanics system.

Comes back with 6 base attributes, 15 derived attributes.

Conclusion: I am contractually incapable of making something straightforwards.
this is before I've added any sort of skill system.  :-\

I had the same problem with my new RTD. The base concept was buying upgrades using points and using them in the arena and it grew pretty much immediately after I introduced stats.

Yeah. You add one thing, and that reveals an interesting way the system could grow and expand, so you add another thing. This repeats the process until you're looking at the system equivalent of a Goldberg machine.
Hello me.
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The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

Dermonster

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See

The solution is

have no mechanics (or character creation process spanning longer than three words)

story only

lets go
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 10:16:32 pm by Dermonster »
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I can do anything I want, as long as I accept the consequences.
"Y'know, my favorite thing about being a hero is that it gives you all kinds of narrative justification to just slay any ol' jerk who gets in the way - Black Mage.
"The bulk of [Derm]'s atrocities seem to stem from him doing things that [Magic] doesn't actually do." - TvTropes
"Dammit Derm!" - You, if I'm doing it right.
Moved to SufficientVelocity / Spacebattles.

Execute/Dumbo.exe

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See

The solution is

have no mechanics (or character creation process spanning longer than three words)

story only

lets go
That reminds me...
Where did I put that...
Ah, musta deleted it, oh well.
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He knows how to fix River's tiredness.
Alan help.
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IronyOwl   But Kyuubey can more or less be summed up as "You didn't ask."
15:52   IronyOwl   Whereas Dungbeetle is closer to "Fuck you."

Draignean

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Ah, but this leads to imbalance. Story requires tension, and tension requires the threat of defeat. In a non-interactive story, like in those paper flippy things I'm so fond of sleeping on, the writer creates a sense of threat by careful control of all outcomes. There is no control, a masterful illusion of life in some cases, but no control.

This same system cannot work when the places where the story is interactive. The threat of defeat is still required, but, in areas where the player is supposedly allowed to have agency, this cannot be simply done by telling the player that they are in threat - or by arbitrarily hurting them to make things seem threatening. To do so is to make a choose your own adventure game of the classic sort, a genre typified by harebrained sub-decisions and frustrating deaths that are out of the player's control and could have been avoided by a particularly bright chipmunk.


Mechanics are there to bridge the gap. The system is often rigged so that a desired series of outcomes is almost assured, but mechanics are the veil that keep players engaged. They believe they can get lucky, they believe they can win, they believe that -if they roll really well and grow their character right- they can overcome the impossible. 

Yes, the story puts them in a place to win, but it's the mechanics that let the players believe that they're the ones doing the winning. The more detailed the mechanics, the more complete the illusion.

tl;dr
It's a pain in the ass to create tension that isn't based on relationships when you don't have mechanics. It's why GMs love it so much when their players interact and roleplay, it means that we have to use our mechanics less to keep the tension pot bubbling.
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I have a degree in Computer Seance, that means I'm officially qualified to tell you that the problem with your system is that it's possessed by Satan.
---
Q: "Do you have any idea what you're doing?"
A: "No, not particularly."

Dermonster

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Look I just want to spend less than thirty seconds on the character sheet okay? Is that too much to ask?

And also more fantasy games that actually hook me in the opening. Some color and effort and style.
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I can do anything I want, as long as I accept the consequences.
"Y'know, my favorite thing about being a hero is that it gives you all kinds of narrative justification to just slay any ol' jerk who gets in the way - Black Mage.
"The bulk of [Derm]'s atrocities seem to stem from him doing things that [Magic] doesn't actually do." - TvTropes
"Dammit Derm!" - You, if I'm doing it right.
Moved to SufficientVelocity / Spacebattles.

Draignean

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Look I just want to spend less than thirty seconds on the character sheet okay? Is that too much to ask?

Absolutely. You can't write a good bio in thirty seconds, period. If you aren't willing to give your neighborhood GMs good bios, you're a cruel cruel soul that deserves what they get.

Unless you get a puppy, or something else that's nice.
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I have a degree in Computer Seance, that means I'm officially qualified to tell you that the problem with your system is that it's possessed by Satan.
---
Q: "Do you have any idea what you're doing?"
A: "No, not particularly."

Dermonster

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I can't seem to write ANY bio. I just sit there for five minutes thinking, get frustrated and churn out another Derm (If not always by that name).
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I can do anything I want, as long as I accept the consequences.
"Y'know, my favorite thing about being a hero is that it gives you all kinds of narrative justification to just slay any ol' jerk who gets in the way - Black Mage.
"The bulk of [Derm]'s atrocities seem to stem from him doing things that [Magic] doesn't actually do." - TvTropes
"Dammit Derm!" - You, if I'm doing it right.
Moved to SufficientVelocity / Spacebattles.

Urist Arrhenius

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Look I just want to spend less than thirty seconds on the character sheet okay? Is that too much to ask?

And also more fantasy games that actually hook me in the opening. Some color and effort and style.
I actually sort of agree, though perhaps for different reasons. I just think writing I'm depth characters is awkward went part of the game is learning about the world the GM had created. If you aren't familiar with the world, you have very little to make a character out of.
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Andres

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Look I just want to spend less than thirty seconds on the character sheet okay? Is that too much to ask?

And also more fantasy games that actually hook me in the opening. Some color and effort and style.
'Thirty seconds on the character sheet' - does that mean writing in the character sheet itself or does it also include reading the rules for the mechanics?

By 'colour' do you mean metaphorically or literally?

As for the conversation of mechanics and its interaction with story-telling, I find that having deeper mechanics than "roll 1d6 to see what happens" leads to better consistency when it comes to a character's abilities. It's not very entertaining to have a character who can do anything so long as they're lucky enough, or to have a character who works really hard to develop themselves but fails anyway for no redeemable reason.

*Ninja'd
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Andres

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Look I just want to spend less than thirty seconds on the character sheet okay? Is that too much to ask?

Absolutely. You can't write a good bio in thirty seconds, period. If you aren't willing to give your neighborhood GMs good bios, you're a cruel cruel soul that deserves what they get.

Unless you get a puppy, or something else that's nice.
No way, man. Bios are exhausting to write and not generally worth it. If the player wants to write one then that's fine, but some people just want to play the game or experience the world rather than get blocked by the necessity of a purely creative wall of text. Besides, why is a long, drawn-out bio so important to a GM that it's considered cruel for a GM to not be supplied one? To me it seems cruel for a GM to require one from the players if anything.

EDIT: I'm talking about normal forum games. Requiring a bio in an RTD is just unforgivable - it goes against the very concept of an RTD which is to allow players to jump right in and start playing (at least according to TV Tropes).

EDIT2: You also have to remember that some people want to play as normal people who decide to become adventurers. Not everyone wants to come descended from a line of heroes or have a cruel and depressing backstory.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 11:09:38 pm by Andres »
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All fanfics are heresy, each and every one, especially the shipping ones. Those are by far the worst.

Draignean

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Look I just want to spend less than thirty seconds on the character sheet okay? Is that too much to ask?

And also more fantasy games that actually hook me in the opening. Some color and effort and style.
I actually sort of agree, though perhaps for different reasons. I just think writing I'm depth characters is awkward went part of the game is learning about the world the GM had created. If you aren't familiar with the world, you have very little to make a character out of.

Bios aren't about where someone is from or about what they've done in the world, it's about who they are. You can write the bio of a 60 year old man, with laugh lines that crease his face even in his sleep and a smile that's as warm and worn as a desert mountain, without knowing anything about the world. Add a few details that add mystery, a couple other personality traits, a decent flaw, and boom: character that's independent of the world. It could be sci-fi, it could be fantasy, all you know is that he's a cheery old man with layers of scars across his back and a tendency to adopt a peculiar, almost martial, position around strangers.
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I have a degree in Computer Seance, that means I'm officially qualified to tell you that the problem with your system is that it's possessed by Satan.
---
Q: "Do you have any idea what you're doing?"
A: "No, not particularly."

Urist Arrhenius

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Bios aren't about where someone is from or about what they've done in the world, it's about who they are. You can write the bio of a 60 year old man, with laugh lines that crease his face even in his sleep and a smile that's as warm and worn as a desert mountain, without knowing anything about the world. Add a few details that add mystery, a couple other personality traits, a decent flaw, and boom: character that's independent of the world. It could be sci-fi, it could be fantasy, all you know is that he's a cheery old man with layers of scars across his back and a tendency to adopt a peculiar, almost martial, position around strangers.
Is 60 years old or young? Is this a time when laughing is plentiful or rare? Does society favor men, women, or is it well balanced? Does the reference do a desert mountains have significance in the world, or are they unknown?

I understand there are things that are "separate" from the world, but I'd rather discover most of those things about a character after they're already in it. If my character has a personality quirk of being afraid of spiders, it means very different things if there are incredibly deadly buggers out there compared to things that eat flies, and you don't often know that sort of thing till the game gets going. The exception to this, of course, is if there's a well established world that the players are already familiar with.
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Dermonster

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*Sigh* Writing the sheet itself.

The best games I ever played just had me chose a Name and a Class and off we went. Roll to be a hero, for example. Name, gender, profession and a trait. Rtrtd, *Thinks* There were more but they're all so long ago. hm. Generic RPG? Arcanum octet, Multiworld madness, Roll to trope(short lived that one.) There was one where I threw a giant ball of radiation at a demon and sterilized a town.

None of them required half an hour of checking through stats and mechanics, or taking twenty minutes to think up three lines of character text because when the hell does it actually come up? At no point in any game where I wrote a bio down did any of it actually turn out to matter.

Okay lets see, I'm a cheery old man, whatever. It doesn't matter. I'll still search through that book for info, I'll still hurl fireballs at the boss and set the town ablaze on accident, The inn will still charge me three gold a night (Criminal I tell you) at no point will anything actually come of me being a cheery old man.

If you want me to customize my character, make it have in game impact. A small list of flaws and traits. I'll pick (old) for +3 intellect and -2 Str. I'll pick up (Old Enemy) in exchange for (well traveled). Hell, give me a goddamn gambling addiction and I'll take up the Granddaughter apprentice who travels with me! Two traits and a flaw, then one trait per taken flaw, or two traits if the flaw is really bad, or two flaws if the trait is really good?

Just... please don't make me make a character out of whole cloth. I can't do it, and if you force me I'll either not play or just make Derm.
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I can do anything I want, as long as I accept the consequences.
"Y'know, my favorite thing about being a hero is that it gives you all kinds of narrative justification to just slay any ol' jerk who gets in the way - Black Mage.
"The bulk of [Derm]'s atrocities seem to stem from him doing things that [Magic] doesn't actually do." - TvTropes
"Dammit Derm!" - You, if I'm doing it right.
Moved to SufficientVelocity / Spacebattles.

Draignean

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Bios aren't about where someone is from or about what they've done in the world, it's about who they are. You can write the bio of a 60 year old man, with laugh lines that crease his face even in his sleep and a smile that's as warm and worn as a desert mountain, without knowing anything about the world. Add a few details that add mystery, a couple other personality traits, a decent flaw, and boom: character that's independent of the world. It could be sci-fi, it could be fantasy, all you know is that he's a cheery old man with layers of scars across his back and a tendency to adopt a peculiar, almost martial, position around strangers.
Is 60 years old or young? Is this a time when laughing is plentiful or rare? Does society favor men, women, or is it well balanced? Does the reference do a desert mountains have significance in the world, or are they unknown?

I understand there are things that are "separate" from the world, but I'd rather discover most of those things about a character after they're already in it. If my character has a personality quirk of being afraid of spiders, it means very different things if there are incredibly deadly buggers out there compared to things that eat flies, and you don't often know that sort of thing till the game gets going. The exception to this, of course, is if there's a well established world that the players are already familiar with.

And this is the sort of thing that makes characters truly interesting. Consider the martial position I mentioned. Without a world, there is no way to know why he has that. Yet, I challenge you that, within ten turns of play, I will know why he stands that way. I don't know who that character is, without a world he's as enigmatic to me as he is to you, and that's the beauty of it!

Perhaps the world is one ruled by women, where men are an oppressed slave race kept as animalistic breeding stock and manual labor. Then my man is an old footsoldier, a used and discarded former weapon that's waiting for slaughter now that he's outlived his purpose. Perhaps he smiles because he knows that everything ends one day, and he'll finally be free. Perhaps he smiles because, for all the oppression and cruelty, he's still alive, the sun still shines, and he can listen to the birds sing for one more day. Perhaps he smiles because he will not be broken, and his smile is the only vengeance he has.

A good character doesn't need to be a hard and fast description of anything, it's a promise. The player promises that the character has these attributes for some reason. They don't have to know the reason now, but they will. If the backstory is plentiful, then there can be elements of the character that are made concrete in the very beginning. Otherwise, everything is a mystery that the player promises to solve later.

tl;dr: You're hitting all the selling points. Everything you mentioned is what will make the character interesting when the player figures it out, and keeping it abstract in the beginning lets the player integrate until the world without disrupting.

Look I just want to spend less than thirty seconds on the character sheet okay? Is that too much to ask?

Absolutely. You can't write a good bio in thirty seconds, period. If you aren't willing to give your neighborhood GMs good bios, you're a cruel cruel soul that deserves what they get.

Unless you get a puppy, or something else that's nice.
No way, man. Bios are exhausting to write and not generally worth it. If the player wants to write one then that's fine, but some people just want to play the game or experience the world rather than get blocked by the necessity of a purely creative wall of text. Besides, why is a long, drawn-out bio so important to a GM that it's considered cruel for a GM to not be supplied one? To me it seems cruel for a GM to require one from the players if anything.

I didn't say the character had to be a wall of text, people like me write characters like that because we're insane, not because we expect other people to do it. I never said a word about a long and drawn out bio, check the old man example I gave earlier, it would probably run about 6 lines, maybe 7 if I added more physical description. As for the cruelty, think of it this way: A GM who is writing a world is holding a city in his/her head. Hundreds of lives, friends and enemies, kings and beggars, each one with motivation and a reason to be. The GM thinks for all of them, feels for all them, is all of them. Then suddenly 6 schmucks show up that the GM can't control and have the apparent personality features of balsa wood until the players so otherwise. The GM needs to know how to react to the players, how to shape the world. You can't do that with "Aaron has red hair and likes dogs. The end.". The players need to make the GM curious about their characters, to interact with them, to explore them. After all, the GM is doing the legwork of making literally everything else interesting.

Not giving a character a bio and sticking it in a world that a GM has built from the ground up is like painting a stick figure on the Mona Lisa and claiming you're helping.

As for RTDs requiring a bio going against their very concept, that's just silly. RTDs can be anything from "Roll to Not Explode" to the epic ones like Their Coming is At Hand (I and II). The line gets blurry. Take a look at the majority of the big old RTDs that sleep in the deep pages. The leviathans, the ones longer than hundred pages, most of those require bios. A lot of the GMs that can say: "I'd like to sneeze" and have people lining up to pre-in, (Dwarmin, DigitalHellhound, SeriousConcentrate, Harry Baldman, GWG (before he went a little crazy), FFS, lawas and the list goes on farther than I can remember at one sitting) almost always require bios. Some of the really awesome ones  don't, like TCM, lawas, Sean himself, etc, but RTDs require whatever the GM says they require. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote
You also have to remember that some people want to play as normal people who decide to become adventurers. Not everyone wants to come descended from a line of heroes or have a cruel and depressing backstory.

Tragic backstories are far from mandatory. One of my favorite characters was an old man who literally cracked his leg the first time he descended a flight of stairs. Still, he had a bio. Shawn Ordo was an eight year old kid with big eyes, and that was about it until the GM gave him super powers. Normal people are great to play as, but everyone has a story, and everyone has traits that make them unique. Look at any random person on the street, and you'll find that in everything they do, in every snapshot of motion and expression, there is a character. If you have to give your character a tragic line of hero-kings with a genetic foot fetish to make them stand out, you need more personality and less history.

Just... please don't make me make a character out of whole cloth. I can't do it, and if you force me I'll either not play or just make Derm.


Nothing wrong with that in and of itself. I just don't like it that you want the GM to create a new and interesting world for you out of whole cloth when you don't even want to give them one character.
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I have a degree in Computer Seance, that means I'm officially qualified to tell you that the problem with your system is that it's possessed by Satan.
---
Q: "Do you have any idea what you're doing?"
A: "No, not particularly."
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