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[lanceleoghauni]

My idea was to simply have one legendary warrior a generation, selected from your population and assigned lavish quarters as the Avatar of Armok, and defender of the fortress, a great leader for the lowly peons to rally around when the enemy hordes break down the doors of the mountainhome. The Danger room is his connection to armok, it is responsible for his apotheosis.

[Blade Master Model 42]

It isn't particularly realistic since blocking an automatic spear that comes from the same hole in the wall in the same direction every time has little to do with sparring with a live, intelligent opponent who is trying to kill you.

Considering the dwarf is still standing within the spear's range, he still has to make that dodge.

Unless there is some way to cap experience gains from training spears (I doubt it), then the only options are to somehow say training spears don't count as attacks and can't give experience or something (ludicrous), or let them continue to quickly advance a dwarf's battle prowess to demi-god levels (unrealistic, but at least it doesn't break the laws of sanity to tiny pieces.)

[Mushroo]

My idea was to simply have one legendary warrior a generation, selected from your population and assigned lavish quarters as the Avatar of Armok, and defender of the fortress, a great leader for the lowly peons to rally around when the enemy hordes break down the doors of the mountainhome. The Danger room is his connection to armok, it is responsible for his apotheosis.

I like this.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

It isn't particularly realistic since blocking an automatic spear that comes from the same hole in the wall in the same direction every time has little to do with sparring with a live, intelligent opponent who is trying to kill you.

Considering the dwarf is still standing within the spear's range, he still has to make that dodge.

Unless there is some way to cap experience gains from training spears (I doubt it), then the only options are to somehow say training spears don't count as attacks and can't give experience or something (ludicrous), or let them continue to quickly advance a dwarf's battle prowess to demi-god levels (unrealistic, but at least it doesn't break the laws of sanity to tiny pieces.)

my idea would be:
1-if you dodge the spear you don't get any experience, we learn from our mistakes, not our successes
2-if the attack is "predictable" you get a bonus to dodge(thus making you more likely to dodge and not gain experience)
3-attacks would be considered predictable if
   3.1-the attacked person succeeded a "judge intent" check against the attacker's "bluff+weapon proficiency" or possibly a new feinting skill, or
   3.2-in case of traps and mechanisms, if the attacked person knows of the existence of the trap(your dwarves would know by default, invaders would "discover it" once the trap is sprung)

regular training could give you feinting and judge of intent skills, besides giving you weapon skills, also, the harsher the training the more effective it would be, but it would also give your dwarves bad thoughts and only the most disciplined dwarves would take it

[Cotes]

1-if you dodge the spear you don't get any experience, we learn from our mistakes, not our successes

We better remember our failures than successes, but that does not mean the best way to learn is only to fail, as your logic would dictate.

Negative encouragement is not all there is to it.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

it's not about encouragement, i'm assuming that if you succeed it's because you didn't commit any mistake and did everything right, therefore you have little to learn. it might give you a good thought and encourage you to keep practicing, since you're noticing your progresses, but it won't give you much experience

[Cotes]

it's not about encouragement, i'm assuming that if you succeed it's because you didn't commit any mistake and did everything right, therefore you have little to learn. it might give you a good thought and encourage you to keep practicing, since you're noticing your progresses, but it won't give you much experience

No, the point is that we learn so strongly from mistakes because mistakes are often fatal and you can't afford to repeat the same mistakes constantly - and what you are suggesting is exactly that, learning from constant failure. That's not how learning works. At all.

You learn to punch by punching again and again, not by missing and missing. Combat (and other physical) training especially is all about repeating the same thing over and over until it's in your spine... With the 'same thing' being the correct response, not the move that repeatedly gets you stabbed.
 
So frankly the current system is far more realistic what you suggest when the idea is to simulate learning by repetition.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

i've learnt a lot in my life, i know i know how to learn, don't try to tell me i don't, dude!

eh, now seriously, my opinion reflects my experience as an artist(and martial artist). i really don't think you learn anything by repetition, in my experience, one learns by doing it wrong, paying attention, doing it wrong again, noticing what we're doing wrong, then not doing it wrong.
an example of the system in work: dwarves that could evade the weapon traps 100% of the time wouldn't learn anything new, they'd just repeat the same choreography over and over again, dwarves that get hit 90% of the time have much to learn, and would gain skill much faster. seems realistic to me

[jellsprout]

but I try to play the game as I believe it was intended to be played.

This is the problem. How do you know Toady didn't picture rooms surrounded by large contraptions that throw spears at you from every angle at all times when he put in Training Spears? Even if Toady didn't think of this when he put in Training Spears, what does it matter? Combos were a programming oversight in Street Fighter 2.
The only thing we know is that it is possible to make Danger Rooms and that they train your dwarves to godly in a short time, or that it is possible to combine a water pump with water wheels in such a way that more energy is created than consumed. If you don't want to use them because they make the game too easy, I won't stop you. I challenge myself in similar ways. But don't go crying that this is not how you want the game to be played.

[ZCM]

Awwwwwww.

[Sutremaine]

I had a big long post about how it is perfectly possible to have a military based fortress successfully without danger rooms.  Then I accidentally hit the back button on my mouse and deleted it all.  It IS possible.  You do have to know what yer doing though, and start recruiting soldiers from your migrants at least my spring of the second year.  Preferably earlier.

Have DT on hand to find out which of your dwarves got hit with the military / education pellets of the skill scattergun, scrape them into a pile, portion them out in small squads with enough slack for eating and sleeping, and cram them into the barracks like sardines. Give them flasks and make sure they sleep, eat, and refill their flasks nearby.

DF 2010's military is all about bootstrapping. Start with a pair of boots, not bits of leather.

[Cotes]

i've learnt a lot in my life, i know i know how to learn, don't try to tell me i don't, dude!

eh, now seriously, my opinion reflects my experience as an artist(and martial artist). i really don't think you learn anything by repetition, in my experience, one learns by doing it wrong, paying attention, doing it wrong again, noticing what we're doing wrong, then not doing it wrong.
an example of the system in work: dwarves that could evade the weapon traps 100% of the time wouldn't learn anything new, they'd just repeat the same choreography over and over again, dwarves that get hit 90% of the time have much to learn, and would gain skill much faster. seems realistic to me

You only learn how to do things wrong by doing things wrong. Useful knowledge that too, but it's not the same as learning to do things properly. And what you describe is something very initial - at first you learn the basic move and work out the flaws in your style, but when it comes to actually preparing for the real thing, you need that repetition. It's one thing to perform a flawless move in a safe and calm environment but when you get into a real hectic fight where you are under pressure and don't have all the time in the world to focus, muscle memory is your friend.

It's not just about being technically able to do a flawless performance, it's about being able to do it in your sleep. Figuring out how to do something properly on technical level is just the first step. Take any world's best of anything and you can bet they haven't stopped doing the basics on the basis they've already mastered them.

Ten thousand kicks and all that.

[Flare]

i've learnt a lot in my life, i know i know how to learn, don't try to tell me i don't, dude!

eh, now seriously, my opinion reflects my experience as an artist(and martial artist). i really don't think you learn anything by repetition, in my experience, one learns by doing it wrong, paying attention, doing it wrong again, noticing what we're doing wrong, then not doing it wrong.
an example of the system in work: dwarves that could evade the weapon traps 100% of the time wouldn't learn anything new, they'd just repeat the same choreography over and over again, dwarves that get hit 90% of the time have much to learn, and would gain skill much faster. seems realistic to me

I feel you're playing down repetition just a wee too much. In most cases where people are expected to perform certain actions in highly demanding situations, they can't do what they haven't any practice in. Sure you can understand how it works, but putting it into practice through the body is another thing entirely.
Granted, repetitive actions do have a certain point where, they reach a limit. But even then, any new action you devise or create will need to be ingrained into the physical memory of the body through repetition. Unless you're a kinesthetic genius, repetition is the only way to make the body understand fast enough to employ it when it really counts.
How else would you explain people who play shooters all day every day become much better than people who don't, sports people who practice being better than those that don't, or the best musicians needing repetitive practice everyday to just retain that level of skill? Reflexes and muscle memory need time to develop, and be developed in a certain way in regards to the discipline at hand. You don't really need to think about what you're doing at all for these two things to develop.
As for the abstraction that happens during training, why not just assume that it happens when dwarves are put in the danger room? I think we all agree that engravers generally look at their past works and think about how to make their next etching better from those experiences. So why can't we assume that the dwarves who dodge the spikes do this too? Add this to the fact that the retention rate jumps up a significant amount when pain is involved in error, and the rate at which the dwarves train isn't too far off.

Thus, the word I think you're looking for isn't "real" but "believable". Is the DF world realistic? It certainly is quite deep in the mechanics it employs, but it doesn't mean that the overall game is aiming for a proper representation of the real world, all it means at that point is that the game is comprehensive in its scope, that the mechanics and representational values inside the game matches other values supposedly similar to it. In other words, it is a relation of factors based upon consistency and believability from the player's point of view.

Can pure repetition create a legendary practitioner? Probably not within the rules of this reality, but it's pretty dang close if given the amount of practice seen in DF. The person probably won't be very sophisticated in their approach, they won't have a wide enough array of skills and techniques within the discipline to be considered a master by a long shot, but what it does do is make the person extremely competent at what they do even if it is limited.

[Flying Dice]

Honestly, what my opinion on this, like most exploits in DF, is, is that each person can have their own opinion and play accordingly, regardless of the opinions of other players. If you don't think that danger rooms are a reasonable part of military training, fine, don't use them. If you view them as useful tools, fine, use them. Complaining about other people using parts of a game in creative ways is absurb when the game is exclusively single-player, and when the actions of someone else cannot possibly affect how you play.

I'm going to use whatever tools I desire when I'm creating fortresses, and everyone else will do the same. It isn't as if what any one of us does changes the way in which others experience the game. Honestly, apart from possible conflict of views in succession games, the issue of whether or not this (or anything else) is a exploit is irrelevant to the game itself. Debates like this have merit in multiplayer games with static rulesets, where something like this can affect the entire playerbase, but the beauty of DF is that if you don't want to use a feature, you can ignore it and play the game your own way.

(Side note: Concerning the mechanics of danger-room training, although it probably isn't as realistic as sparring or repeating basic movements, it is somewhat plausable, in that you are basically shoving a bunch of  dwarves into a small room, with spears repeatedly stabbing out from the walls. Even if you know where they're all coming from, even if you've memorized the exact reach of every one, you're still having to jump, roll and dodge around to avoid them while also keeping track of the other dwarves in the room. At the very least that should improve spatial coordination. Also, once my dwarves are up to ~master level, I build a new, 'advanced' training room with copper and iron spears, to keep them on their toes.  )

[devek]

The flaw is in the title.. it should be, "Your opinion on danger rooms"

If you have a "stance" on danger rooms, you need to get a life hehe.