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[Bookthras]

Oh, one more thing Toaster: how about updated rules on item trading? Can the scum trade items amongst themselves? How about townies either through the main thread, or scrolls of mail?

This will necessarily mean more work for the moderator, as he'd have to make the transactions happen and keep track of items. But it could make the game more dynamic as well.

For scum trading, it's trivial, just do it over scum chat. In fact, considering their inventories one common "scum pool" would be the easiest way.

For the townie trading it'd be more work, one way it could work even without scrolls of mail could be this:
Alice: I have a rare item I don't need. Can anyone exchange for item of same rarity?
Bob: I don't have a rare, but have a good uncommon that I don't plan to use, and can throw in a common I have in duplicate. Interested?
Alice: OK, trading process starts.

Alice PM to Toaster: please put this Rare item in escrow for Bob, an uncommon and common in exchange.
Bob PM to Toaster: please put these two items in escrow for Alice, a rare in exchange.
Toaster, once having received both PMs, and confirming they both indeed have the items in their inventory and are as they claimed, sends PMs and adjusts his mod spreadsheet accordingly.

Toaster PM to Alice: Transaction completed. Rare removed, these two items added.
Toaster PM to Bob: Transaction completed. These two items removed, rare added.

Exceptions: Toaster would, by necessity, need to confirm the players have the items they want to trade, and keep the inventories right. I think it would be healthy if also worked as escrow, in the sense of only completing the transaction when both parties have initiated the transfer. In this case, the exception process is trivial. If the transaction PMs are not received, or do not have applicable items, by the end of phase the transaction is aborted, and so communicated by PM.

Alternatively, less work for the mod, but less optimal, just allow Fred to PM him "I give wand of protection to Gabe", he sends "you receive a wand of protection" to Gabe, and adjust the inventories. Less optimal because then Gabe can "forget" to send the corresponding traded item to Fred, or falsely claim he did, or send a scroll of junk instead of the Amulet of Awesome, or Fred falsely claim he did. While the lying is part of the game, I think making it part of the trade would make it less fun and more confusing, though admittedly less work for the mod.


So Toaster, item trading?

[Toaster]

The problem with item trading is that it becomes an issue at lynch time.

ScumA:  Damn inspect, I'll hang for sure.  Here, ScumB, have all my items.

Also, scum pool doesn't work when it comes to passives.  If I did allow item trading (and I'm not particularly in favor) it would need to process at end of day, and be aborted if one party was lynched.  Not for the next game, at least.


Amulet of Yendor:  I like the protection idea.  How about a 50% chance that protections on you fail?  Question is what could it be sacrificed for?  About the only thing that makes sense is a pile of items, but that doesn't really fit the flavor.  I might just leave it as added survivor wincon, 50% chance of protections failing on you.  If you don't like it, just discard it (or sell it if you're a merchant).


Scroll of Taming:  I'll leave it as the ?oTaming fails if the user is either not actionning or not targeting.  The user of the ?oTaming wouldn't know what changed of the user's action.


Potion of Raw Chaos:  Once per phase.  So if you got it at end of D1, you could use it N1, D2, N2, D3, etc until you blew up.


Scroll of Exchange:  Mmm... free action, okay.  I'll throw it in and see how things go.


...except something needs to be rebranded, because that name's in use:

Scroll of Exchange:  Choose two players other than yourself.  At the end of the night, they exchange all items.

Perhaps rename this one to Scroll of Transference?  New scroll to Scroll of Polymorph Item?

[Urist Imiknorris]

Amulet of Yendor:  I like the protection idea.  How about a 50% chance that protections on you fail?  Question is what could it be sacrificed for?  About the only thing that makes sense is a pile of items, but that doesn't really fit the flavor.  I might just leave it as added survivor wincon, 50% chance of protections failing on you.  If you don't like it, just discard it (or sell it if you're a merchant).

Sacrifice for user's choice of non-artifact item, a la magic lamp?

New scroll to Scroll of Polymorph Item?

Scroll of Store Credit.

[Bookthras]

The problem with item trading is that it becomes an issue at lynch time. [...] Not for the next game, at least.

Yeah... I like the idea of item trading, but those are strong arguments against. Needs more thought.

Amulet of Yendor:  I like the protection idea.  How about a 50% chance that protections on you fail?  Question is what could it be sacrificed for?  About the only thing that makes sense is a pile of items, but that doesn't really fit the flavor.  I might just leave it as added survivor wincon, 50% chance of protections failing on you.  If you don't like it, just discard it (or sell it if you're a merchant).

Sold. If you have the AoY added survivor wincon, but 50% chance protections on you fail. As to the sacrifice? You sacrifice it for victory! So if you have it at the end, the survivor wincon kicking in is considered your reward for having sacrificed it, yes?

Scroll of Exchange:  Mmm... free action, okay.  I'll throw it in and see how things go. ...except something needs to be rebranded

Scroll/wand of polymorph item is good enough, I think, and yeah free action is really necessary, or using it would be too expensive. Alternatively, it's not free action, but it affects your entire inventory as described earlier (artefacts immune, each item 50% chance change, 25% degrade rarity, 25% no effect).

PPE: Scroll of Store Credit is hilarious!

[Bookthras]

Also, please weigh on the decisions for scroll of mail and public pool... I don't want these to be overlooked in the flurry of replies.

Scroll of Mail:  Despite my continual buffing of them, they still remain unused.  I'll add that the target may send a short reply (25 words or less) no later than end of phase.

Great! How about the idea of everyone starting with one as part of one's adventurer kit? Or maybe just some classes? Or add a guaranteed way to get one: one could say "this day, instead of adventuring or looking into the common pool, I will endeavour instead to go to the post office", so they get a guaranteed scroll of mail for future use instead of the random item they would otherwise have gotten.

Pool:  I'm thinking about upping the start to six items with two guaranteed uncommon or better items.  Mulching a random common at a certain point once a day may work as well, but I'm less sold on that.  (I already forget to announce the count of the thing most of the time...)

I like it, and like wuba's 2% artefact chance a lot, but still seems insufficient. I still like the idea of (at least a chance of) nightly drops, and mulching of swag.

[Toaster]

Hrmph.  Giving each player a Scroll of Mail to start with is verging into oddball gametype, and I don't see anyone trading a quest for an item of questionable utility.

I'll just roll with it as is for the current game.  Honestly, I think they'd be better in bigger games- think old big Paranormals.


And the Pool?  I'll go with 6 starter items, two guaranteed U+, and mulch a random common right before the count happens at day start (excepting D1).  With an expected day player every phase, the pool gets fairly sizable toward game end.

[Toaster]

Roguelike 5 is now in signups.

I went with the above for the Pool, added the Archaeologist, and I'll finalize the item list in the morning with the above-discussed items.


I did come up with another class idea:


Scavenger:  When questing, the scavenger is able to recover two items, but the average item quality is lower.  Odds are (something like- needs testing):  85/11/3.5/0.5

Gives choice in exchange for average item quality.  Seems on commons, but keep in mind the above odds are rolled twice.

[Toaster]

I finished updating the item list.  I believe everything was done as said on thread, except that I made the Scroll of Store Credit a day action (which is in line with many other inventory manipulation actions) and put in a wand version.  I like the progression- instead of a staff, the Potion of Raw Chaos exists.

[Bookthras]

Some general thoughts before the next game starts:

Hrmph.  Giving each player a Scroll of Mail to start with is verging into oddball gametype, [...] Honestly, I think they'd be better in bigger games- think old big Paranormals.

Agreed that bigger games would see more use for it, but Paranormals are "PM-allowed" games, which is where the next buffing of the scroll would leave us, yes? Not for RL5, but maybe think again about making RL6+ PM-allowed?

About the current incarnation of the scroll of mail: does the target know who the sender is? Do they get "a message from Bob" or merely "a message"? If the second, nothing prevents Bob sending a message saying "Hi, this is Alice...", right? Bob would still get the reply. Also, the 25-word limit is only for the reply, the sender can be as verbose as he wants, yes?

Trivial point: adding the reply means a better name for it would be "Scroll of Sending".

And the Pool?  I'll go with 6 starter items, two guaranteed U+, and mulch a random common right before the count happens at day start (excepting D1).

I like that a lot. How about wuba's suggestion of a 2% chance for artefacts? Is that in?

added the Archaeologist, [...]
Scavenger:  When questing, the scavenger is able to recover two items, but the average item quality is lower.  Odds are (something like- needs testing):  85/11/3.5/0.5

I don't see the Archeologist or Scavenger in the last spreadsheet. Are they in?


And a question I had forgotten: is Grayswandir's kill a one-shot thing, or a nightly kill?

[Toaster]

?oMail:  It is up to the sender to sign it, and the user of the item is not limited in length.


Currently the pool uses the same generation chances as regular items.


Archaeologist is in, Scavenger is not due to lack of testing/thought on it.  I'll update the spreadsheet.


Grayswandir is reusable- currently the only source of a reusable kill.

[webadict]

?oMail:  It is up to the sender to sign it, and the user of the item is not limited in length.


Currently the pool uses the same generation chances as regular items.


Archaeologist is in, Scavenger is not due to lack of testing/thought on it.  I'll update the spreadsheet.


Grayswandir is reusable- currently the only source of a reusable kill.

A thought for scavenger could be 71/22/7/0. Sacrificing the chance for an artifact to get two items. It also follows the pattern of Archeologist, so it fits pretty well.

[Toaster]

Back from the grave!

I've made a whole host of tweaks, and have ideas for many more.  First, actual changes:

Changed all instances of N/A to Passive.  This just cleans up wording to be a bit more consistent; some items referenced Passive which didn't have a definition.
Defined Phase, Cycle, and Passive.
Tweaked Antimagic Mail.  Now specifies that it blocks Staves, and can be turned off and on as a free action once per Phase.
I buffed Deck of Many Things because it was fairly weak (totally random item use is hard to target.  Now in addition to the original ability, one "card" is known at all times and can be used specifically.  On top of that, there is a super ability that uses it a semi-random number of times with random targets at the cost of losing the deck.  Finally, I added the addendum that no item can be chosen twice.  (Scroll of X and Wand of X are not the same item!)
I also buffed Boots of Blinding Speed.  Now only the second target is randomized, and you may choose to use three actions in exchange for every action being blindly randomized.  (In case of inspect actions, you would find out the result but not the target.)
Potion of Raw Chaos no longer can be used at night for an instant result, because the timing sucks on that.  In exchange, it's now considered a Potion, which means it doesn't count against your action in general; more on that below.
Amulet of Communication is now a free action.
Wand of Polymorph Other now always makes the target a different class than they are now.  If it is used twice on the same target, it is possible to go back to the original class.


And the new stuff...

New mechanic: Potions!  Potions are (mostly) one use items that take a "potion action", which can be used in addition to a regular action.  All potions are self-targeting, and tend to be rarer than effects that target normally.  The idea is to give supplemental actions that are add-ons to whatever else you are doing.  Potion of Raw Chaos already exists, but we can add:
   Potion of Protection [Uncommon]:  Protect from one kill action on you tonight.
   Potion of Awareness [Uncommon]:  See all players that targeted you tonight.
   Potion of Regeneration [Rare]: If you are killed tonight, you come back to life at the end of the night.  (You do not role flip, but your death is noted.)
   Potion of Cure Poison [Common]: Removes the Poisoned condition from you.
   Potion of Invisibility [Uncommon]:  You cannot be tracked or watched tonight.
   Potion of Strength [Uncommon]: Any kill action you take tonight bypasses protection.
   Potion of Insurance [Uncommon]:  Name a player.  They gain a random rare when you die.  [This is a permanent effect, not this night only.]
   Potion of Volume [Uncommon]:  What action(s) you use this night (other than this one) are publically announced.
   Potion of Phasing [Uncommon]:  You leave the game until the end of the next day.  You may take no other actions, and all other actions on you fail.

This can lead into other potions that have multiple effects, but have downsides:
   Potion of Invincibility [Rare]:  You cannot be killed tonight.  You may take no other action tonight, and none of your passive items function.
   Potion of Rage [Rare]: In addition to your other action, you kill your target.  You may only take one other action tonight regardless of other effects, and you cannot vote the next day due to exhaustion, but this kill is unblockable and bypasses one protection.
   
We can also add items that give choices of more common actions, to prevent dilution too much of more common actions:
   Scroll of Watchfulness [Uncommon]:  You may either protect or watch the target.
   Scroll of Presense [Uncommon]:  You may either track or watch the target.
   etc

Other proposed new items:
Memento Ring [Rare]:  You may make one game-relevant post after you die.  Vanishes on death instead of dropping.
Scroll/Wand of Interposing [Uncommon/Rare] or [Common/Uncommon]:  Any action that targets your target targets you instead.
Scroll/Wand of Joined Fate [Uncommon/Rare] or [Common/Uncommon]:  Any action that targets your target targets you as well, and vice versa.
Scrol of Dreams [Uncommon]:  Get the night results of a random other player.  ["Borrowed" from Supernatural]
Scroll of Thievery [Uncommon]:  Block the target.  If you do, take the item before it is used.
Scroll of Mercy (Day) [Rare]:  The target may not be lynched today.
Scroll of Revealing Light [Rare]:  Target's action is announced publically.
Scroll/Wand of Stealth [Uncommon/Rare]:  You hide behind the target tonight.  Any kill actions that target you fail, but if your target is the target of a kill action, you die as well.

General notes:

I have a note on Scroll of Item Knowledge being too strong, but not why.  It is an inspect action that targets everyone, so that's probably it.  Is it too strong?  Should it target a limited subset of players?
Cloak of Shadows feels weak for an artifact.  What else could it do?  My first thought was some sort of track/watch immunity, but that already exists on other items... or so I thought.  Turns out it doesn't, but I feel like that could be two separate rare items.  Thoughts?
Amulet of Preservation, an uncommon, is (almost) strictly better than Bag of Holding, a rare.  This won't do.  How can they be better differentiated?


Finally, the Scavenger class.  I'd like to give it a go and see what happens.  I've got it down to 75% common, 20% uncommon, 5% rare, 0% artifact.  That's half chance of a rare and no chance of artifact, but the uncommon chance only goes down by 5%.  That's still a ~44% chance of at least one non-common every night, and actually slightly better (9.75%) chance of at least one rare.  I may need to lower it a bit more, actually; much better chances of uncommons at the expense of never getting an artifact.

[EuchreJack]

Honestly, I think you should work towards a system without randomness.  In other words, if someone uses an ability, it always works unless another player uses an ability or otherwise acts.

Maybe characters could assemble potions/scrolls/wands based upon items, and those items can be seeded among the players.
Maybe some alchemists and herbalists?

[notquitethere]

Bag of holding could come with some random (likely common) item already in it?

I couldn't see cloak of shadows in the list. What does it do?

[Toaster]

Bag of holding could come with some random (likely common) item already in it?

I couldn't see cloak of shadows in the list. What does it do?

Interesting idea... I'll think about the implications.

Cloak of Shadows   It takes an extra vote to lynch you.   Passive

It's an artifact.