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[Tiruin]

I have a suggestion for a new common item: a wand of...I really need a good name...that allows you to discover a target player's class at night.

Wand of Profession.

Class ability analysis:

Bard: Seems okay.
Mage: Good idea, maybe underpowered?  Maybe something like 50% recycle on common items, 33% on uncommon, 25% on rare?  (or maybe 33/25/10?)
Merchant: Seems okay.
Paladin: Seems okay.
Priest: I feel a little "ehh" on this one, but leaning toward okay.  Maybe throw in a small (5 or 10%) chance of getting some resurrecting item at the beginning?  Or maybe he can sacrifice a number of items to his diety and get a wand of protection as a night action too?
Ranger: This one feels "ehh" to me as well, but anything I can think of suggesting sounds more like a thief ability.  Like, bonus to getting higher quality items, always getting the highest quality item from the pool, etc.
Thief: Seems okay.
Transmuter: Seems okay.
Warrior:  Maybe be something more like 25% kill resistance?  As is, it's really only helpful for scum (very situationally) and practically useless for town (as odds of getting a killing item as town and *then* targeting someone being protected...).
Maybe throw in a passive item like "Bracers of forcefulness" that add 33% chance to pass protections?  Uncommon, maybe?
Random: Seems okay.

No on the Ranger. If highest quality means "Artifact"... The 1/3 bypass seems good enough as it is.

[Toaster]

I do agree that Warrior is pretty lackluster for town.  Perhaps it should be dual-purposed like Paladin is?  Starting with a kill is too good, even if only town start with a kill.  Intrinsic kill resistance is a bit much, though, since that'd just make it better for mafia.

Classes are there to provide a minor guaranteed buff that supplement- not supersede- the items you collect.

[Bookthras]

Game Four has been completed.

And it was great.

Second is flavor.  The varied nature of the items imply a certain flavor of usage, but that flavor may be used as clues as to who did what.  The option exists to ditch flavor entirely and just report results, but I think that loses something.

Keep the flavour. More flavour is always better. I understand it's a lot of work for you, but skipping the flavour would lose more than "something". I guess I don't understand about the troublesome clues, or what the complications are (other than the work of writing good flavour, which is non-trivial).

If it's just the ?oHallu, then we can come up with a generic flavour for that particular scroll, along the lines of: "Wow! Great stuff! Look at all the pretty colours! ... You can't seem to aim straight", and if protected from attack, add "you seem to undergo an out-of-body experience. Weird feeling, but it passes." Bonus points if at the end of the night it ends with "everything looks SO boring now!"  8-)

Third is the public pool.  It's a good concept, but the execution feels lacking.  Does anyone have any suggestions for spicing it up?

I'm not sure. During the game it felt really lackluster, but indeed some good stuff came from it, and its collecting passive stuff is... interesting.

As I said during the game, I think part of the problem is too few initial items, plus the dead people would have used up the good stuff, so it's leftover potluck. It would be better with more stuff, or with better stuff. A couple of ideas, which may or may not be good ideas, but worth discussing:
1) Generate items for it every day: in addition to the dead guys' stuff, add 2-4 more items, at standard drop rates, every day.
2) Purge excess: every morning, half the common items in the pool disappear. This would make the items on the pool better and better as the game progresses.
3) Bigger initial drop: if not added to every day, then start with more items (say 6, two of which uncommon or better, or at least one rare or better.
4) Add "attributes" on top of items: when a player dies, in addition to their inventory, a one-shot use of the player's class is added to the pool; say a "crystal of thievery" or "crystal of war" that would give a one-shot (like scroll) use of the class thieving/bypassing action.

Fourth is a specific item- should the Brooch of the Phoenix work on lynches?

I think the multi-rez is already powerful enough. If lynches or daykills are added, it overlaps too much with the "oLifeSaving.

I'm interested in the thoughts of others on flavor, and also any items that aren't clear on function.  Suggestions for new content are always welcome.

When discussing the scroll of self defence on scumchat, you said:

If B was blocking you instead of inspecting, you'd just be blocked. From order of operations: "Blocking a redirector that isn't redirecting you succeeds before that redirector redirects." If you activated the scroll tonight and it didn't trigger, and someone blocked you the next night, they would die and you would be blocked. The kill does not prevent their action.

*This is how it happens as per the current rules, and I'm not actually sure that's a good result. Something to discuss postgame, because I'm not changing anything midgame.

Can you elaborate on what would be a good result?

I have a suggestion for a new common item: a wand of...I really need a good name...that allows you to discover a target player's class at night.

Wand of Profession.

I like the item, though base class should be a scroll, not wand (wand can also exist, but rarer). For name, how about scroll/wand of detect motive, or scroll/wand of analysis, or, getting sillier, "DNA testing kit"?


I'm sure I had thought of some new items, but can't remember them at the moment. I'll post them when I do.

[GlyphGryph]

How about giving warriors a chance (10%?) to kill anyone targeting them in the night.

Obviously has both benefits and drawbacks... Also probably a terrible idea.

Also, Scroll of Identification/Identify?

Or do we already have one of those?

[Tiruin]

Since the Paladin goes as both a Godfather for scum and a one-shot cop, I concur that we should repurpose the Warrior.

Hows about a one-shot defend item along with a common instead of the inherent benefits?

Ninja'd.

Also, more flavor! I agree with Book! "You feel a certain tension"...

[Bookthras]

How about giving warriors a chance (10%?) to kill anyone targeting them in the night.
Obviously has both benefits and drawbacks... Also probably a terrible idea.

Making them (even 10% chance) PGOs makes them even better for scum, and not very good for town either.

I like Tiruin's idea better... perhaps remove their bypass chance altogether and replace it with two scrolls, one of protection, one of blocking? i.e., "warriors excel at defence and offence, and are able to save another's life or disable a target"? Or give them a stamina/resilience effect: "the first time you are blocked or redirected, you can ignore it"...

...no, not quite good enough. Needs more thought.

Also, Scroll of Identification/Identify?

What would that do? Items come pre-identified... or do you mean for the class cop item? "Identify" strongly implies items, not people...

if it weren't outside typical roguelike terms, I'd suggest something like "Terminal of Background Check". Heh.

[Urist Imiknorris]

How about giving warriors a chance (10%?) to kill anyone targeting them in the night.
Obviously has both benefits and drawbacks... Also probably a terrible idea.

Making them (even 10% chance) PGOs makes them even better for scum, and not very good for town either.

I like Tiruin's idea better... perhaps remove their bypass chance altogether and replace it with two scrolls, one of protection, one of blocking? i.e., "warriors excel at defence and offence, and are able to save another's life or disable a target"? Or give them a stamina/resilience effect: "the first time you are blocked or redirected, you can ignore it"...

...no, not quite good enough. Needs more thought.

Wand of the Guardian?

[GlyphGryph]

Fine, 25% counter-kill, but only versus kill actions (that are selected, if its an item that randomly selects one of several actions)

And yeah, I meant it for identifying players.

[Bookthras]

Fine, 25% counter-kill, but only versus kill actions (that are selected, if its an item that randomly selects one of several actions)

Actually, that sounds perfect. Warriors should be tough to put down. Even a 33% chance of killing their killer would be OK, I think, and good for both scum and town. But only for nightkills (not lynches/daykills), but nightkills from any source (mafiakills, ?oDeath, redirection to a person with ?oSelfDefence or whatever).

I like this a lot. Thoughts?

[webadict]

Fine, 25% counter-kill, but only versus kill actions (that are selected, if its an item that randomly selects one of several actions)

Actually, that sounds perfect. Warriors should be tough to put down. Even a 33% chance of killing their killer would be OK, I think, and good for both scum and town. But only for nightkills (not lynches/daykills), but nightkills from any source (mafiakills, ?oDeath, redirection to a person with ?oSelfDefence or whatever).

I like this a lot. Thoughts?

Too good for Town.

The whole point of a Warrior is that scum can take it and use its powers and then be vulnerable if someone finds out their class. It just makes you the Hitman in the group. It's not like it matters if Town doesn't want to pick them.

[Hapah]

I'm actually fine with Warrior being very weak for Town, because by the same token Priest is very weak for scum (there are some uses, but it's certainly not the strongest). Besides, no one HAS to pick random, and if they want to roll the dice then they should be able to lose by pulling a weak role. It'd be a different story if classes were handed out by the mod, but I think it's okay as-is.

As for the pool, it really depends on what you want from it. If you want it to continue to be a place to go for more permanent items, you don't want to flood it with too many new items each day, or it will get diluted.

Just thinking out loud here, if you are looking for new features for the pool. What if you added one item a day to the pool at better (but not absurd) quality? Or what if, at some point during the day (start of day? Post-lynch?) a count was given of the number of each rarity currently in the pool? Or combine the two, and at the start of the day there could be a message like "An Uncommon item has been added to the pool". I don't know.

[webadict]

I'm actually fine with Warrior being very weak for Town, because by the same token Priest is very weak for scum (there are some uses, but it's certainly not the strongest). Besides, no one HAS to pick random, and if they want to roll the dice then they should be able to lose by pulling a weak role. It'd be a different story if classes were handed out by the mod, but I think it's okay as-is.

As for the pool, it really depends on what you want from it. If you want it to continue to be a place to go for more permanent items, you don't want to flood it with too many new items each day, or it will get diluted.

Just thinking out loud here, if you are looking for new features for the pool. What if you added one item a day to the pool at better (but not absurd) quality? Or what if, at some point during the day (start of day? Post-lynch?) a count was given of the number of each rarity currently in the pool? Or combine the two, and at the start of the day there could be a message like "An Uncommon item has been added to the pool". I don't know.

I believe that there is a count that happens in RoguelikeBot. It was added because I felt like it was impossible to figure out if the pool was worth it, and it was a buff. I think it's a good idea, but I'm not sure if that happens currently in RLM. As for Warrior, I thought it was pretty strong. It was Ranger that I felt was underpowered. But, then again, I'm running RoguelikeBot in a slightly different direction.

[Toaster]

Well, I'm currently supposed to post the item count in the pool at day start, and I usually forget.  I did it what, twice that whole game?  I could always up the odds on item rarities for pool items (49/35/15/1 or so) and change the guarantee to two uncommon or better items.

Web/Hapah do have a point- Priest is similarly weak for scum.  I don't see a big problem with leaving both as is, now that I think on it harder.


Book:  The trick with flavor is that it makes you want to write it so that the PM recipient can infer what items/effects others have/are using.  Hallucination, as mentioned, being the primary offender, but I'm going to explicitly make it be obvious to the target that they are hallucinating.

As far as the "good result" comment, I honestly cannot think of what I meant when I said that.  It all seems good to me now.

Wands don't necessarily have to have a scroll and/or staff counterpart- see Haste and Cantrips (and I think invis.)

[Bookthras]

I obviously spent more time than healthy thinking about this stuff... apologies for wall of text, but please comment.

I could always up the odds on item rarities for pool items (49/35/15/1 or so) and change the guarantee to two uncommon or better items.

I like this, but I'm not sure of the optimal numbers. I think I'd like better stuff (swingier or more decisive) more likely to be available later in the game. Excalibur on D2 is not the same as Excalibur on D5...

As working proposal for discussion (fractions rounded down)(all numbers need balance):

a) if pool items are generated only at game start, make it eight items, at least two uncommon or better, drop rate for others: 49/35/15/1

b) or instead, generate and purge the pool daily: every morning (after night actions), half (more? less?) of common items are destroyed, and a number equal to (say) half of the remaining players of new items are generated, at the standard drop rates.

Option (a) makes for more stuff, option (b) makes for better stuff. Either is good. But of course the numbers need work, and there are other options (including "it's fine as it is").

[about Warrior class] Web/Hapah do have a point- Priest is similarly weak for scum.  I don't see a big problem with leaving both as is, now that I think on it harder.

I see the point: nobody says you must choose "random", and if you do, you may end up with a class suboptimal for your alignment (in exchange for an item upgrade)... I'm fine with this. But on the other hand, "Warrior", at least, still seems weak. I like the "warrior is tough to put down" idea, low chance of kill-my-killer thing, if it can be balanced...

Plus I think a scumbuddy with a wand of protection is quite good for scum (regarding the priest-weak-for-scum comment), at least compared with a kill-less current-warrior townie.

Book:  The trick with flavor is that it makes you want to write it so that the PM recipient can infer what items/effects others have/are using.  Hallucination, as mentioned, being the primary offender, but I'm going to explicitly make it be obvious to the target that they are hallucinating.

OK for Hallucination then. Are there any other offenders as far as flavour and interactions/clues are concerned? I'm sure we can come up with default/stock text that can be tailored to the situation without causing undue pressure on giving out too much game information or being insufficiently flavourful, or hitting writer's-block...

Flavour is tough, but default flavour is both easy and useful to players as being repeatable & trustworthy. Think "chains flavour" for Paranormal Wardens... it's always different, but there's always consistent elements you can interpret so the player knows exactly what's going on. We can make Hallucination like this, and other effects, or interactions of effects, consistent as well. Which?

Wands don't necessarily have to have a scroll and/or staff counterpart- see Haste and Cantrips (and I think invis.)

Right, but class-inspection and alignment-inspection should be equivalent, yes? (common scroll, uncommon wand). Proposed name: "taxonomy"; common scroll of taxonomy, uncommon wand of taxonomy, reveals the target's class.




Potential ideas for new items:

• Amulet of reflection (rare? redirect): all actions that would have landed on you land on whoever targeted you instead.
• Scroll of domination (rare?): target is converted to your faction, they win with you; mafia/cult are immune.
• Amulet of Yendor (artefact): if you have this at the end of the game, you win, no matter what. (win exclusively? or just added survivor to wincon?)
• Scroll of taming (uncommon?): target will protect their target instead of whatever action they had chosen; if their chosen item was consumable, it is lost.
• Scroll of punishment (rare?): target is permanently roleblocked until they pray (see below) and their gods remove it.
• Potion/wand of polymorph: shoot at target (wand) or quaff potion (self) to change class for a random new class. Class items (like priest's /oProtect) are not lost. (maaaybe allow zap wand at self to turn inventory items to different items of same rarity, but rares/artefacts will resist? own class would change too, of course)

Idea for new game mechanic: New night action available to all, in exclusion to others: "Pray". Results vary according to a roll against "sacrifice value" (S):

• Base sacrifice value is zero if scum or 3rd party, one if town.
• They can choose to improve this value by "sacrificing" items in their inventory; scrolls are worth one point, wands two, staves three, artefacts five, all others one. Can add as many as they want/have when they do this.
• If they themselves (not buddies) have killed a cross-aligned player, add three points to sacrifice value.
• result: roll a die of (sacrifice value)sides, dS
• Outcome: (suggestions welcome)
• 0-1: The gods are indifferent: no effect
• 2-4: The gods are pleased: all negative effects (curse armour, punishment, and so on) removed
• 5-7: The gods are well-pleased: as above, plus blessed armour/weapon (other effect?)
• 8+:  The gods grant you a gift! as above, plus get a random uncommon or better item

Obviously needs work, but I like the idea.

[webadict]

Idea for new game mechanic: New night action available to all, in exclusion to others: "Pray". Results vary according to a roll against "sacrifice value" (S):

• Base sacrifice value is zero if scum or 3rd party, one if town.
• They can choose to improve this value by "sacrificing" items in their inventory; scrolls are worth one point, wands two, staves three, artefacts five, all others one. Can add as many as they want/have when they do this.
• If they themselves (not buddies) have killed a cross-aligned player, add three points to sacrifice value.
• result: roll a die of (sacrifice value)sides, dS
• Outcome: (suggestions welcome)
• 0-1: The gods are indifferent: no effect
• 2-4: The gods are pleased: all negative effects (curse armour, punishment, and so on) removed
• 5-7: The gods are well-pleased: as above, plus blessed armour/weapon (other effect?)
• 8+:  The gods grant you a gift! as above, plus get a random uncommon or better item

Obviously needs work, but I like the idea.

I don't have much time, so I'll say this:

This is a bad idea, as it's really just unnecessary extra work for Toaster. Also, items aren't necessarily rare or common based on whether they are a scroll or wand. But, that's beside the point.

Basically, how often would it be used other than as a forced action? Not very, except as a way to cleanse the inventory. And even then, still not really worth it.