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[webadict]

@/oWishing: It requires even worse special casing as a wand (one charge, no recharge, making it much different from other wands because it's functionally a scroll). As a scroll, the only special case is on magic markers. Auctually, this makes me wonder. Why IS that restriction on writing scrolls of wishing there? If some lucky bastard gets a magic marker and a rare scroll, I think it's entirely roguelikey to allow writing a scroll of wishing purely because what are you going to wish for with the current artifact restriction? That's a lot of luck right there, two rares and two nights (one to write the scroll and one to wish). If we changed both actions to being item generation actions, this would ALSO cost the player two random items! All for what, an "oLS? Crown of Thorns? A /oDeath? That exact sequence of actions is neither likely nor gamebreaking, so there's no reason to ban it.

It's a restriction because you're not allowed to get artifact scrolls from COMMON SCROLLS. If you read the description for Magic Marker, you're allowed to rewrite a scroll of anything to get a scroll of anything. This is to prevent things like, oh, say, "lol, scroll of derp into scroll of genocide." you act like skipping two random items to get one ANYTHING YOU WANT is BAD! I have no idea if you're being serious here... Wow, I just skipped that 1 - (.99 * .99) = 1 - .9801 = .0199 chance to get an artifact! Rats! I knew I shouldn't have wished for any rare I could want! D'oh! Stupid me!

So to recap, /oWishing has quite a few special cases to justify being a wand when it's functionally a scroll. As a scroll, there are no special cases whatsoever.

Well barring Scroll of Cloning, but we can either cut it or make it an artifact wand or something. Right now it's a bit boring and potentially OP, so I wouldn't mind seeing it cut.

It really only has one special case as a wand (Starts with 1 charge). And because it's an artifact, it can't be recharged (Or decharged, either). Also, if you want to be roguelikey... ADOM doesn't allow WoW recharges either.

You can't treat all scrolls the same anyhow. Isochron Scepter doesn't allow artifact scroll staves. Do you want Mages to have a chance to reuse their artifact scrolls?

The problem with Rangers even buffed up that much is that it's an anti-town role. Townies won't pick it (anybody who does should seriously be lynched on principle (ok, I kid)). Scum don't want it because it's too narrow. Getting redirected is still statistically likely to be helpful. Delaying the mafiakill is actually helpful to the mafia. Getting roleblocked is fairly unlikely to happen. But even if one of these abilities actually gets aimed at the ranger and the ranger is actually doing the mafiakill, there's still that 33% chance of success. That's a 66% chance of FAILURE! With those odds you're better off just grabbing a bard or random and hoping for a good starter.

Not really. Townies don't want to be blocked either. They have things to do! And neither does the mafia! And the not wanting to not be delayed is on purpose. It's so that there IS some kind of balance. Do you want some block resistance or do you want to make sure delays work? And boohoo on numbers. 2/3 chance to fail is better than 100% chance to fail, now isn't it? Classes ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE SUPERPOWERS. You're forgetting the main point of a class: To gain a small bonus.

I still don't understand the flavor of Rangers ignoring roleblocks, doubly so for redirect and delay resistance. Hell, I can't think of anything flavorful for them at all. Oh look, archers! How do you simulate an archer in mafia without giving out any active abilities?

Well... did you think of this: Try coming up with a new name. One that makes sense. Instead of whining about "lol, rangers no have block resistance that so stupid!!!!111", try being like, "Well, I see Rangers are improperly named. I believe you should rename it to Rogue, because of their ability to evade." That would be much appreciated.

@BotP vs "oLS vs CoT: When I made the item I imagined it as being reusable and double-edged in that it was more likely to kill townies rather the mafia. I actually kind like what you've proposed, although it is REALLY strong. I still say it's too similar to the CoT, but that's an issue with the CoT. Basically, you should cut it. Passive items are too good in this setup. The focus is supposed to be on actions, not "oh btw mafia you killed a guy with an item you couldn't of known about so now you're dead w/o any way to stop it". As an artifact, I'll tolerate it since at least it's likely somebody will figure out it exists because of the Oracle Scroll. As a rare, it's gonna come up too frequently for my tastes.

Your original item is FAR more anti-Town than this one. If it is reusable, then the Mafia is basically unkillable. Why are you one-siding things? It's supposed to be balanced for both sides. Or at least not completely broken.

@Scroll of Hellfire: Meph's been trying this effect since like Paranormal 8. It's not bad, it's just that it normally only kills one person.

That's because it's never had a chance to shine. This is far more powerful than Scroll of Genocide.

Rare:
Scroll of Exilement: Kills target player, then removes that player from game entirely if he/she died.

How is this a good scroll or any different from Scrolls of Death? It's pretty pointless.

[Mr.Person]

It's a restriction because you're not allowed to get artifact scrolls from COMMON SCROLLS. If you read the description for Magic Marker, you're allowed to rewrite a scroll of anything to get a scroll of anything. This is to prevent things like, oh, say, "lol, scroll of derp into scroll of genocide." you act like skipping two random items to get one ANYTHING YOU WANT is BAD! I have no idea if you're being serious here... Wow, I just skipped that 1 - (.99 * .99) = 1 - .9801 = .0199 chance to get an artifact! Rats! I knew I shouldn't have wished for any rare I could want! D'oh! Stupid me!

Umm, no. Here's the MM rules.

Turn any scroll you carry into any equal or lesser rarity scroll of your choice. Cannot create scrolls of wishing or cloning.

So no. Right now without the special casing about no Scroll of Wishing writing, to turn a scroll into a Scroll of Wishing, you'd need another rare scroll. Since the marker itself is also rare, what's broken about allowing two very specific rares to be combined to create a single rare? Nothing at all. Doubly so since the best thing you can get with said wish is another rare. Wowies, that's completely fair. Powerful, sure, but it's completely possible to have generated whatever rare was wanted in the first place.

The only real broken part is if a Mage gets his hands on the scroll, but honestly, that's a problem with Mages being too strong. I'd probably just make Mages not be able to save rare or artifact scrolls at all. I'd say having a 50% chance of saving common scrolls is fair, for balance you see.

Now if we make wishing into an artifact, things are different. If you paid attention, you'd realize I already said using a MM on artifacts or creatings artifacts from a MM is completely stupid, and there's already lots of rules to prevent artifact abuse from nearly every class.

But if you're THAT serious about no Scroll of Wishing, at least just call it "Magic Lamp". The point is that it ISN'T A WAND FUNCTIONALLY, SO WE CAN'T CALL IT A WAND FLAVORFULLY!

It really only has one special case as a wand (Starts with 1 charge). And because it's an artifact, it can't be recharged (Or decharged, either). Also, if you want to be roguelikey... ADOM doesn't allow WoW recharges either.

You can't treat all scrolls the same anyhow. Isochron Scepter doesn't allow artifact scroll staves. Do you want Mages to have a chance to reuse their artifact scrolls?

Ah, so you DO want to make wishing into an artifact item. That's fine, but even that one wand special case is one too many to justify some flavor that's irrelevant. Trust me, the difference between a good game and a great game is polish, and similar things (wands) working in similar ways (they have 2 charges) is really, really important. It might be that nobody says anything, but I guarantee somebody will get a wand of wishing and wonder why their wand isn't a wand.

When did I say that? Quit trying to strawman me, you're much better at debating than that. Seriously, when did I say I wanted either of those things? I don't want to treat all scrolls the same, I want to treat all rare scrolls the same, all artifact scrolls the same, ect. More to the point, I want to treat all wands the same because if one donesn't act like a wand (2-shot action), it's not a wand.

Not really. Townies don't want to be blocked either. They have things to do! And neither does the mafia! And the not wanting to not be delayed is on purpose. It's so that there IS some kind of balance. Do you want some block resistance or do you want to make sure delays work? And boohoo on numbers. 2/3 chance to fail is better than 100% chance to fail, now isn't it? Classes ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE SUPERPOWERS. You're forgetting the main point of a class: To gain a small bonus.

The problem isn't that it's narrow, it's that there's better class choices for everyone because Ranger is so narrow. Hell, Warrior has a similar problem, but it's actually even worse since it's only going to be picked by scum.

If there was a class that started with a wand of... paralysis, then I could see Ranger actually getting picked. As-is, everybody is better off with something else. But hey, if you like Ranger so much, explain why you picked Bard in the last game.

I still don't understand the flavor of Rangers ignoring roleblocks, doubly so for redirect and delay resistance. Hell, I can't think of anything flavorful for them at all. Oh look, archers! How do you simulate an archer in mafia without giving out any active abilities?

Well... did you think of this: Try coming up with a new name. One that makes sense. Instead of whining about "lol, rangers no have block resistance that so stupid!!!!111", try being like, "Well, I see Rangers are improperly named. I believe you should rename it to Rogue, because of their ability to evade." That would be much appreciated.

Now you're just being rude. I wasn't whining, so quit acting like a baby and pretending I was. I asked straight out what your flavor justification was because I couldn't see it. Maybe there was something good, I dunno, that's why I asked. If you're going to pretend that asking questions is whining, grow up.

I stated that Rangers have poor mechanics and poor flavor (to me). Because of both of those factors, I said I wanted them cut. If they merely had bad flavor, yeah, I'd be fighting to save them. As-is, I'm not going to work to save something I've decided isn't worth saving. Problem with Rogue-rename is that Thief already is a class, and Rogues and Thieves are the exact same thing. Best name available is Illusionist, and that's just plain awful.

Your original item is FAR more anti-Town than this one. If it is reusable, then the Mafia is basically unkillable. Why are you one-siding things? It's supposed to be balanced for both sides. Or at least not completely broken.

My version didn't activate on lynch. In any case, why are you arguing this? I like the current version enough to keep it, so that's that.

@Scroll of Hellfire: Meph's been trying this effect since like Paranormal 8. It's not bad, it's just that it normally only kills one person.

That's because it's never had a chance to shine. This is far more powerful than Scroll of Genocide.

No, it's swingy. I'd say it's about the same power level. In fact, I'd say it's even lower than Geno in this incarnation since Geno won't kill yourself accidentally. It's not a bad item or anything, I'm mearly pointing out that it's not an I-win button, which I approve of.

It'll probably result in more deaths, yeah, but nearly all those deaths will be unfocused and hard to control. IE, not many mafia deaths. It's quite nasty if the mafia get it, but so are most artifacts. Actually, I'd like to see it in action and playtest it, since I'm worried it'll be too swingy.

Rare:
Scroll of Exilement: Kills target player, then removes that player from game entirely if he/she died.

How is this a good scroll or any different from Scrolls of Death? It's pretty pointless.

Just trying to avoid hard-to-stop lylo breakers while adding more ways to remove a player from game. Right now it's basically "Kill with no roleflip", but if you'd support "Kill with no roleflip, bypass protection", I guess I could support that as well. That's already really good for the mafia as no roleflip kill, though.

[webadict]

So no. Right now without the special casing about no Scroll of Wishing writing, to turn a scroll into a Scroll of Wishing, you'd need another rare scroll. Since the marker itself is also rare, what's broken about allowing two very specific rares to be combined to create a single rare? Nothing at all. Doubly so since the best thing you can get with said wish is another rare. Wowies, that's completely fair. Powerful, sure, but it's completely possible to have generated whatever rare was wanted in the first place.

Must have missed that. As such, it's your OWN choice of rare, which you seem to be discounting. You don't get to choose your items otherwise, and the 19% chance to get 1 or more random rares or artifacts vs. the 100% chance to get any item rare or less of your choice is still better than average.

What's the chance of getting that rare you wanted randomly? Like... 1 in 200? Yeah, I'd rather have that, wouldn't I?

The only real broken part is if a Mage gets his hands on the scroll, but honestly, that's a problem with Mages being too strong. I'd probably just make Mages not be able to save rare or artifact scrolls at all. I'd say having a 50% chance of saving common scrolls is fair, for balance you see.

They only save non-artifact scrolls.

Now if we make wishing into an artifact, things are different. If you paid attention, you'd realize I already said using a MM on artifacts or creatings artifacts from a MM is completely stupid, and there's already lots of rules to prevent artifact abuse from nearly every class.

I've always been for making Wishing an artifact. Getting any rare you want is incredibly powerful.

But if you're THAT serious about no Scroll of Wishing, at least just call it "Magic Lamp". The point is that it ISN'T A WAND FUNCTIONALLY, SO WE CAN'T CALL IT A WAND FLAVORFULLY!

I was against Scrolls because of their being scrolls. Try not to have an aneurysm. Renaming it Magic Lamp works just as well.

When did I say that? Quit trying to strawman me, you're much better at debating than that. Seriously, when did I say I wanted either of those things? I don't want to treat all scrolls the same, I want to treat all rare scrolls the same, all artifact scrolls the same, ect. More to the point, I want to treat all wands the same because if one donesn't act like a wand (2-shot action), it's not a wand.

Because you're basically frothing at the mouth trying to fix every last detail. If you had decided to vaccinate yourself first, you could have just said, "Rename it to Magic Lamp. Fits flavor better."

The problem isn't that it's narrow, it's that there's better class choices for everyone because Ranger is so narrow. Hell, Warrior has a similar problem, but it's actually even worse since it's only going to be picked by scum.

If there was a class that started with a wand of... paralysis, then I could see Ranger actually getting picked. As-is, everybody is better off with something else. But hey, if you like Ranger so much, explain why you picked Bard in the last game.

Umm... Maybe you didn't notice, but I DO want a Roleblocker class to start out with. I never denied it. And, I picked Bard because, like it or not, I'm going to want an item that makes sure I don't die as Town. Best chances? Bard.

Now you're just being rude. I wasn't whining, so quit acting like a baby and pretending I was. I asked straight out what your flavor justification was because I couldn't see it. Maybe there was something good, I dunno, that's why I asked. If you're going to pretend that asking questions is whining, grow up.

I stated that Rangers have poor mechanics and poor flavor (to me). Because of both of those factors, I said I wanted them cut. If they merely had bad flavor, yeah, I'd be fighting to save them. As-is, I'm not going to work to save something I've decided isn't worth saving. Problem with Rogue-rename is that Thief already is a class, and Rogues and Thieves are the exact same thing. Best name available is Illusionist, and that's just plain awful.

I was reciprocating your tone in an attempt to show how childish you were acting.

Rangers have poor mechanics BECAUSE they're underpowered. The flavor part is something else entirely. Have a chance to ignore redirection and blocks is something that would be wanted by both sides, especially with a Roleblocker choice.

No, it's swingy. I'd say it's about the same power level. In fact, I'd say it's even lower than Geno in this incarnation since Geno won't kill yourself accidentally. It's not a bad item or anything, I'm mearly pointing out that it's not an I-win button, which I approve of.

It'll probably result in more deaths, yeah, but nearly all those deaths will be unfocused and hard to control. IE, not many mafia deaths. It's quite nasty if the mafia get it, but so are most artifacts. Actually, I'd like to see it in action and playtest it, since I'm worried it'll be too swingy.

Err... No, I don't think you understand. Scroll of Hellfire DOESN'T kill you. It has a specific safety clause against that. Scroll of Genocide has a chance to kill 1 or 2 people maybe.

And yes, the mafia getting artifacts IS unbalanced. Which is why I want SK scum, instead. The game IS basically Evolver, so playing it like Evolver would make sense.

Just trying to avoid hard-to-stop lylo breakers while adding more ways to remove a player from game. Right now it's basically "Kill with no roleflip", but if you'd support "Kill with no roleflip, bypass protection", I guess I could support that as well. That's already really good for the mafia as no roleflip kill, though.

The "No Roleflip" was not intuitive in your description. I thought it just removed all the player's items from the public pool as well as killing them and that was it, which seemed mightily pointless unless you knew they had an artifact.

[Mr.Person]

Yes! I beat Webadict in an argument! Granted, it was about because he missed an irrelevant detail in a uselessly long spreadsheet on a stupid topic of theoretical balance, but the point is I win!

[Max White]

Yes! I beat Webadict in an argument! Granted, it was about because he missed an irrelevant detail in a uselessly long spreadsheet on a stupid topic of theoretical balance, but the point is I win!

Hmm, you put forward a strong argument...
Vote Wubby

[webadict]

Anyone care to test the horror of RogueBot?

He's nowhere close to finished yet. He's just got a few things I want to test. Three people + me would be nice to test. Otherwise, I'll be super lonely and have bots do it for me.

[Max White]

What would testing require?

[webadict]

What would testing require?

Voting system, class choosing, and item acquiration. But this will be at around 4:30 PM Central. Possibly later. Nights don't work, but who cares, right? I'm still making sure it doesn't breakdown first.

[Max White]

That's like, 7:30 am tomorrow morning... If I am awake and online I will help you out.

[webadict]

I CAN use bots for this, too

[Toaster]

I'd test, of course, but I can't then.  You know what time I usually get on.


Ranger:  I'll give them 33% redirect resistance as well, though you'll have to spell out the "getting delayed is good for scum" bit to me- I've never heard that one.  Again, if anyone has better mechanics or naming for the class, I'm listening.  I agree on thieves and rogues being too close in name.  Ninja, perhaps?
Extra actions is probably too good at 25%.  I'd think you'd have to knock the percentage down to so low a point that no one would take it to balance it.

Warrior:  I'm against nerfing them.  They're narrowly focused as is.

Mage:  The original design gave them a tiered chance to save scrolls based on rarity, but that was changed for the sake of simplicity.  Here's another case where Wishing is better off as not a scroll.


Wishing:  If we want to keep it consistent in both mechanics and flavor, we need to rename it.  That'd mean either Magic Lamp or Scroll of Acquirement (Crawl).  Only issue with keeping it a scroll is Isochron Scepter- a Staff of Wishing/Acquirement is too strong- just get three AoLS.  (Or two and a clone scroll, but meh.)
I think the effect isn't good enough to be artifact, considering it costs a night action.  I'd consider giving it two charges and make it day at the artifact level.

Speaking of clone scrolls:  I like the idea of them, but they're removable if they are too problematic.  Opinions?

Scroll of Misdirection:  In on that name.

Scroll of Teleport:  I agree on the name, but the effect is extremely boring.  /oInvis already does self-untargetable, so that's out.  Any other ideas?

Scroll of Replacement:  I'll put that in.

Wand of Item Detector:  Already exists as Wand of Probing at the uncommon level.  Think it makes a better common?   I'm not too against that, with the caveat that I might in the future give third parties unique items.

Scroll of Exilement:  I'm not sure how this differs from a regular death.  Is it a watered-down Legacy Weapon?  I should keep reading.  So yes, it is a watered-down Legacy Weapon.  I'm not a fan, especially with the prot-bypass, which makes it too good for rare.  Legacy Weapon is special since it's basically altering reality to make the target not exist any more.

Scroll of Hellfire:  What I was thinking when I wrote it is that the self-protection only applied from you targeting the target, and if the target targeted YOU, you'd still die.  I'm okay with it either way, but it needs to be spelled out.  Note that the effect does not propagate, so if you Hellfire A who targets B who targets C, then C doesn't die.  In a game where nearly everyone has a night action, that'd be too strong.


For reference, as of right now, the odd of getting a specific rare from a single item drop is 1/433.333 (repeating).


Web:  Would you give SK scum a kill?  If so, would you special case item usage?  If not, how would you balance them, since Grayswandir* is the only reusable kill item (and has a 1 in 1600 chance to appear in a single item drop)?

*The One Ring too, but it only drops for townies.

[webadict]

No, SK do not start with a kill. The game is too short with 2-3 kills.

[Toaster]

How would you balance it then?  Without a kill, they're a gimped survivor.

[webadict]

Not really that unbalanced. I don't think you're QUITE understanding the point. It's evolver.

[Toaster]

I've never played evolver, but don't you get permanent abilities in it?

Can you give me an example 13p setup?  It'd help me see what you mean.