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[Bdthemag]

Btw, working on RoguelikeMafiaIRCBot.

Might need a shorter name.

I love you.

[Think0028]

Btw, working on RoguelikeMafiaIRCBot.

Might need a shorter name.

Bah, just shorten Roguelike. Call it RoBot.

[Heliman]

Paladin: How about, instead of giving it an inspect, you give it a reverse-freindly neighbour ability? Each night, the paladin learns that one random player is town. It can be countered by the godfather type character like:

Spy: While Town, it can track the movements of any player at night. While scum, will always inspect as town.

[webadict]

Paladin: How about, instead of giving it an inspect, you give it a reverse-freindly neighbour ability? Each night, the paladin learns that one random player is town. It can be countered by the godfather type character like:

Spy: While Town, it can track the movements of any player at night. While scum, will always inspect as town.

I'm not a fan of free actions in Roguelike Mafia. So no.

[Mr.Person]

Btw, working on RoguelikeMafiaIRCBot.

Might need a shorter name.

Nethack IRC rooms generally have bots by the name of "Rodney", which is a monster in the game. Sadly, Nethack doesn't have any named dwarves to my knowledge, but Crawl has a dwarf named Wiglaf.

[webadict]

I called him RogueBot. Of course, my internet blew up, so I can't test him just yet. Despite there being mostly nothing to test.

[webadict]

RogueBot shall have only protection items, warriors and rangers in its first incarnation. It's a pretty meek setup, but it's easier to test.

So far, I've got players set up and the ability to add items and classes. Unfortunately, what's left to do is the hard part: actions and gameplay.

I've got a general idea for gameplay, wherein days end with hammer (or possibly a timer, but hammers are pretty easy to calculate.) Actions... Are another story. I'm going to hate actions. But I'll get it somehow.

[Toaster]

I'll help test when I'm able.  My home internet is spotty right now.

Anyway, class proposals!

Paladin:  You start with a Scroll of Inspection in addition to a random common.  All inspections on you return Town.

Necromancer:  You have access to the Dead Chat.  Dead players will be told if there is a Necromancer present.

Transmuter:  As a day action, you may combine two items of the same rarity to get one of a higher rarity.  Rares will transmute into another rare.


Only issue I see with Transmuter is it may cause player annoyance if they try to combine mismatched rarity items.  Perhaps take the "average" rarity, rounding down? (That'd mean if they were one apart, you'd get a new item one higher than the lower of the two, but a common and rare would get rare)

Spy is too strong as-is- I agree on no free night actions.  A % chance of untrackability might work as an alternative, but that's pretty much scum exclusive (which I want to avoid on the classes- see Paladin.)

Druid would be a pain in the ass to mod.

I kind of like the idea of a "blue mage" style class, but I don't see how to implement it.  Non-item one shots is against the theme of the game, but getting items is nasty to reconcile as far as flavor.


Items!  I added foo of Shapeshift to common/uncommon/rare, per Ottofar's suggestion.

Scroll of Wishing will become Wand of Wishing, with a single charge and no ability to recharge.  This change helps with a couple other items, noted below.

Magic Marker:  Is now a day action.   Specific scroll restrictions (Cloning/wishing) are removed.

As written, it can target artifact scrolls.  That is consistent with Nethack, but is that desired behavior?  Currently, it can turn scroll of Genocide and Greater Treasure into each other (or any other scroll.)  I don't think that's bad behavoir, but it is a bit oddball with the standard definition of an artifact (ie: unalterable)

Isochron Scepter:  Now able to target rare scrolls.  The produced staff can only be used at night, so no daykill staff for you.  (Free cookie for first person to make a Staff of Gifts.)

Scroll of Cloning:  Debating making this one a day action.  As is, it's fairly not-useful, since pretty much the only item you'd want more than one of that isn't a night action item is the Amulet of Life Saving.  See note on Isochron above.

Excalibur:  Per Web's suggestion (as many of these are), gains a (no limit) inspect action in exchange for losing unblockable inspects.  This adds to the metagame nicely- would a townie give up an inspect for King powers?

Brooch of the Phoenix:  Kills your killer (or who last voted for your lynch) instead of someone at random.

Vorpal Sword needs a hand- it's weaker compared to other artifacts (say, Grayswandir.)  I'm not sure what to give it, though.  Potentially a downgrade to rare as is.

As far as flavor goes, I'm considering renaming the four basic action scrolls (Inspect/Roleblock/Track/Protection) to something more roguelike.  Protection is probably okay as is.  Inspect becomes Detect Alignment?  (Detect evil is taken.)  Roleblock would be Paralysis, but then the current Paralysis effect would need a rename.  Track... I'm not sure.  It might just be fine as is.  Roleblock and Inspect are the big two, which would help to clear up flavor issues with Paladin and Ring of Free Action.


Comments?  More suggestions?  Desire for round 3?

[webadict]

Roleblock = Webbing. It makes sense flavorwise to break through it then

Inspection = Insight? Usually these are potions that are self-used, but it's either that or Detect Alignment, which isn't bad.

Protection = Healing, since it has no effect if the character isn't dying.

Also, another suggestion to make Ranger better: 50% chance to ignore blocks (or 33% chance to ignore blocks, redirection, and delays, which would be really nice), and removal of the block ignore on Warriors. Given the rarity of blocks, this should balance things out better.

[Mr.Person]

I fail to understand why you're turning the scrolls into wands that function like scrolls in every way but name. If the problem is Magic Marker can make Wishing, simply buff wishing and make it an artifact scroll. Artifact scrolls should obviously not be writtable. Sure, it's Nethackish, but in the bad way. We don't want to emulate bad or supid behavior from Nethack. Making artifacts breaks regular artifact flavor (they should be hard to get) and changing one into another breaks the rule that artifacts are immutable.

How I'd buff wishing: you use your wish during the item generation stage. Artifacts can be wished for, but have only an 80% chance to generate. Each previously generated artifact cuts these odds of success in half, so one already existing one would be 40%, 2 would be 20%, 3 would be 10%, ect.

I'd probably do Cloning that way and make it a wand again, by the way.

I don't agree with buffing the Brooch of the Pheonix that way. It's already powerful, but it's also a double endged sword. I thought we wanted more double-edged items? More to the point, your version is just plain broken if the scum get it. I don't really want every artifact to be an instant "I win" for the scum, which many of them kind of already are. That also makes it much more similar to the Crown of Thorns, which I'm also not a fan of existing, but also an artifact being "rare but better!" isn't exactly what I'd call fun.

Roleblock should probably be called paralysis. I don't like the current slow at all, so that can be the name for delay. Current slow can be cut. Delay resistance can be put together with haste, I guess.

Personally, I would just plain cut Rangers. They don't add anything really interesting, only matter infrequently, and won't even work 100% when the ability kicks in. There's much better flavor concepts that can be using that class slot.

Current Scroll of Confusion makes no sense (I know how it makes sense, I mean for anyone who hasn't played Nethack and knows what "glowing hands" means), and it's kind of boring in general, so let's rename "Scroll of Distraction" to "Scroll of Confusion" and cut current Scroll of Confusion.

Common:
Scroll of Remove Curse: Target is immune to "Curse" class effects for the night. Any ongoing curses are removed.
Scroll of Charisma: Target gains an additional vote (although I'm afraid the scum can abuse this easily).

Uncommon:
Scroll of Teleportation: On the night this is used, players attempting to target you get randomly redirected (or we can cut the silly hallucination being randomize and protect). Flavor is they all can't find you so they action somebody else instead.

Scroll of Ill Will;
First, change it to "Scroll of Cursing"  for symetry with Scroll of Blessing
Second, be aware that right now it's a bit too weak for a rare wand. Here's a good random rare effect list
Rare: Scroll of Torment: Target is affected by one of the following effects chosen at random: Curse Armor and Curse Weapon, Disable, Destruction, Death, or target permanently becomes a Miller for the rest of the game.

[Mr.Person]

No to the Necromancer. Games with talking to the dead are MUCH different from ones without.

[Toaster]

? vs / oWishing:  Two reasons:  The flavor is best as a wand, and its existence requires special casing of other things as a scroll.  I like it better at the rare level, but if I did make it an artifact, it'd get its two charges (and be a wand).  Making it replace item generation is a good idea, but mechanically obtuse.

Ditto on the change to cloning.


BotP: The issue with is when comparing it to AoLS and Crown of Thorns.  For town, AoLS is almost certainly better than the old BotP, while the opposite for new BotP.  For scum, it's reversed.  I think considering the other two rares already existing, the best solution for it is completely redoing the mechanic. Two ideas:

Sacrifice this item to resurrect anyone who dies this night.  (before they hit dead chat.  Other on-death effects except for item loss would still occur- ?oMuggers would get an item.)
If you are killed at night, you and everyone else who dies that night comes back to life.

It could also just be cut.

Roleblock and friends: I think I'll do all that.  Current slow is pretty bleh, and useful in rare edge cases.

Rangers:  Do you have suggestion for a new mechanic?

?oConfusion:  Works for me.

I like ?oRemove Curse.  Charisma, however, used to exist as uncommon or rare, and I cut it before the first game in the interest of removing LYLO breakers.  I don't think it's that big a deal now (see Game 2) but I do think common is a bad place to put it.  I'm still wary of putting it in.

?oTele:  I like the mechanic, but the flavor is a bit weak.  Any other name suggestion?  Mirror Image?  (Goes through the fake and hits )

Ill Will:  I wanted the effect lists for scroll and wand flavor to be the same.  I'll put Curse Armor on there as well.
Torment:  I like that.  Thematically, I'd like a "good" counterpart.  Possibilities:  Revive, Enchant Armor/Weapon, Greater Treasure, Extra Vote next day?



Another artifact scroll, because artifact scrolls are cool:

Scroll of Hellfire:  Your target, your target's target, and anyone targeting your target (besides yourself) are killed.


Would have given five kills used on Web D1 last game.

[webadict]

I'm telling you, STOP TRYING TO CUT RANGERS!

Give Rangers a significant boost, such as 33% block, redirect, and delay resistance. Cut the 33% block resistance on kills for Warriors. This way, the scum have to choose between unblockability or protection ignore.

[Mr.Person]

@/oWishing: It requires even worse special casing as a wand (one charge, no recharge, making it much different from other wands because it's functionally a scroll). As a scroll, the only special case is on magic markers. Auctually, this makes me wonder. Why IS that restriction on writing scrolls of wishing there? If some lucky bastard gets a magic marker and a rare scroll, I think it's entirely roguelikey to allow writing a scroll of wishing purely because what are you going to wish for with the current artifact restriction? That's a lot of luck right there, two rares and two nights (one to write the scroll and one to wish). If we changed both actions to being item generation actions, this would ALSO cost the player two random items! All for what, an "oLS? Crown of Thorns? A /oDeath? That exact sequence of actions is neither likely nor gamebreaking, so there's no reason to ban it.

So to recap, /oWishing has quite a few special cases to justify being a wand when it's functionally a scroll. As a scroll, there are no special cases whatsoever.

Well barring Scroll of Cloning, but we can either cut it or make it an artifact wand or something. Right now it's a bit boring and potentially OP, so I wouldn't mind seeing it cut.


The problem with Rangers even buffed up that much is that it's an anti-town role. Townies won't pick it (anybody who does should seriously be lynched on principle (ok, I kid)). Scum don't want it because it's too narrow. Getting redirected is still statistically likely to be helpful. Delaying the mafiakill is actually helpful to the mafia. Getting roleblocked is fairly unlikely to happen. But even if one of these abilities actually gets aimed at the ranger and the ranger is actually doing the mafiakill, there's still that 33% chance of success. That's a 66% chance of FAILURE! With those odds you're better off just grabbing a bard or random and hoping for a good starter.

I still don't understand the flavor of Rangers ignoring roleblocks, doubly so for redirect and delay resistance. Hell, I can't think of anything flavorful for them at all. Oh look, archers! How do you simulate an archer in mafia without giving out any active abilities?


@BotP vs "oLS vs CoT: When I made the item I imagined it as being reusable and double-edged in that it was more likely to kill townies rather the mafia. I actually kind like what you've proposed, although it is REALLY strong. I still say it's too similar to the CoT, but that's an issue with the CoT. Basically, you should cut it. Passive items are too good in this setup. The focus is supposed to be on actions, not "oh btw mafia you killed a guy with an item you couldn't of known about so now you're dead w/o any way to stop it". As an artifact, I'll tolerate it since at least it's likely somebody will figure out it exists because of the Oracle Scroll. As a rare, it's gonna come up too frequently for my tastes.

@Scroll of Hellfire: Meph's been trying this effect since like Paranormal 8. It's not bad, it's just that it normally only kills one person.

@Scroll of Tele: There has GOT to be a scroll with this name. Replace Phasing? No, Phasing is the perfect name... We could just have an uncommon "Scroll of Teleportation" which is just protect self.

Mirror Image is a fairly good name. Scroll of Misdirection is the one I'd pick. Confusion Barrier, Alistair's Intoxication (Crawl spell), Turnabout, Deflection. These are all acceptable names.

@Scroll of Ill Will: Yeah, I wanted the name to match the mechanical linkup with blessing. It's a fine uncommon. A tad weak I guess, but fine. I'm just saying that as a rare wand, it was just plain bad.

@Scroll of Charisma: Oh yeah, I'm a dumbass. I was looking at balance from D1 and D2 where an extra vote is irrelevant. I knew lylo would be a problem and mentioned it, but I stupidly didn't factor that into rarity. I mean, only a stupid townie would give the scum an extra vote on lylo, but if the scum get the scroll, woohee. I never like lylo breakers, so I'm forced to agree with you. I was so desperate for more commons I was williing to accept anything. Good catch.

Common:
Scroll of Replacement: If target would be affected by an action at night, that action gets redirected to you. (I didn't see anything with this effect, but what do I know?)
Wand of Item Detection: Learn how many items targetted player is carrying

Rare:
Scroll of Exilement: Kills target player, then removes that player from game entirely if he/she died.

[Max White]

Rangers are known to duel wield.
Each night there is a 25% chance they will be granted a second night action. You can not use the same item twice a night with this action.

Thoughts?