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[Bookthras]

Idea for new game mechanic: New night action available to all, in exclusion to others: "Pray".

This is a bad idea, as it's really just unnecessary extra work for Toaster. [...] Basically, how often would it be used other than as a forced action? Not very, except as a way to cleanse the inventory. And even then, still not really worth it.

True, the way it was listed makes it mostly worthless unless you're in trouble. Let's turn it around (and ignore for a second the added mod work):

- It is often the case in this RL setting that you don't have a useful item for the night; you may have a wand of cantrips or similar trivial thing... so say you could PRAY instead of using a "meh" item.
- Results would be improved by sacrificing the "meh" item you didn't want to use in the first place. More items later would make it a better result (and give use for useless crap).
- Let's improve the results: remove "no effect"; if you pray, it works, unless you've sinned (how?)

Then:
- basic result: remove all negative effects, and give positive effect (random bless armour/weapon or other)
- improved result: above plus give uncommon or better item
- great result: above plus use the given uncommon or item on your target. (means you pray something happens to someone)

Is this better? I know it's more work, and I thank Toaster for running these, but I think the idea is worth some discussion.



Regardless, I'd like to hear opinions on earlier points regarding item generation for the pool, improvements for the warrior class, and my proposed items (amulet of reflection, taming, polymorph, etc).

Plus, I think that default flavour is a good idea which, as proved by paranormals, can give repeatable/reliable results on top of enjoyable flavour in most cases (and other cases are solvable). From a scroll of Hallucination, or a complicated interaction like being redirected by a wand of cantrips onto a person who had a scroll of self defence while you're holding the brooch of the phoenix... there can be flavour elements that are constant and recongnisable for all these. Meph gave us the cues: "blocked, chains flavour", "bullet holes", "stand guard outside their home" and all that... flavour can always be new and good and creative and still reliable. Let's do that.

Meph: if you're around, your thoughts on these items/mechanics, and thoughts around flavour are very welcome.

[Bookthras]

Follow-up point regarding the scroll of mail:

Toaster: Why not make the Scroll of Mail a free action, I.E. the user can use it along with another ability/item?

I did, even allowing it during the day.  It still never got used. That might be an interesting idea- give everyone an anytime one-shot PM to another player and see what happens.

the benefit of PMs is vastly reduced unless people can respond, in my experience.
It probably doesn't have to be everybody either, as long as they know other people can PM back.

Toaster: how about making Roguelikes a PM-allowed game like paranormals?

...or at least make scrolls of mail a "reply paid" thing, like the sending spell, so whoever receives a message has a chance to respond to it? (maybe make it 25 words or less for added challenge...) Then give every player a one-shot scroll of mail at the start of the game!

I like this.

[Tiruin]

Or at least give what Bookthras said to one of the 'underpowered' classes mentioned earlier.

[webadict]

Idea for new game mechanic: New night action available to all, in exclusion to others: "Pray".

This is a bad idea, as it's really just unnecessary extra work for Toaster. [...] Basically, how often would it be used other than as a forced action? Not very, except as a way to cleanse the inventory. And even then, still not really worth it.

True, the way it was listed makes it mostly worthless unless you're in trouble. Let's turn it around (and ignore for a second the added mod work):

- It is often the case in this RL setting that you don't have a useful item for the night; you may have a wand of cantrips or similar trivial thing... so say you could PRAY instead of using a "meh" item.
- Results would be improved by sacrificing the "meh" item you didn't want to use in the first place. More items later would make it a better result (and give use for useless crap).
- Let's improve the results: remove "no effect"; if you pray, it works, unless you've sinned (how?)

Then:
- basic result: remove all negative effects, and give positive effect (random bless armour/weapon or other)
- improved result: above plus give uncommon or better item
- great result: above plus use the given uncommon or item on your target. (means you pray something happens to someone)

Is this better? I know it's more work, and I thank Toaster for running these, but I think the idea is worth some discussion.

Not really.

Again, you're missing the really important part: You're using an action to do this. If you're not given free time to sacrifice these things, nobody will do it.

In every game, there are some really basic things that people do. After making a bunch of BYORs, I noticed these things:

1. If a person has a random effect for their ability, they are unlikely to use it over something known.
2. If an ability requires more than one turn to set up and use with nothing in between, they are less likely to use it.

So, the Pray action would seemingly clear up useless items in favor of wasting time. And you only have a certain amount of time, which means that you're more likely to use that useless item than sacrifice it with time for something maybe a bit better. As the results are again random, it's just not a good action.

Or at least give what Bookthras Shakerag said to one of the 'underpowered' classes mentioned earlier.

I'll tell you reasons for why they aren't nearly as underpowered as you think.

Class ability analysis:

Bard: Seems okay.
Mage: Good idea, maybe underpowered?  Maybe something like 50% recycle on common items, 33% on uncommon, 25% on rare?  (or maybe 33/25/10?)
Merchant: Seems okay.
Paladin: Seems okay.
Priest: I feel a little "ehh" on this one, but leaning toward okay.  Maybe throw in a small (5 or 10%) chance of getting some resurrecting item at the beginning?  Or maybe he can sacrifice a number of items to his diety and get a wand of protection as a night action too?
Ranger: This one feels "ehh" to me as well, but anything I can think of suggesting sounds more like a thief ability.  Like, bonus to getting higher quality items, always getting the highest quality item from the pool, etc.
Thief: Seems okay.
Transmuter: Seems okay.
Warrior:  Maybe be something more like 25% kill resistance?  As is, it's really only helpful for scum (very situationally) and practically useless for town (as odds of getting a killing item as town and *then* targeting someone being protected...).
Maybe throw in a passive item like "Bracers of forcefulness" that add 33% chance to pass protections?  Uncommon, maybe?
Random: Seems okay.

The Mage has a particularly high chance to recycle a one-shot item. 1 in 3 is not bad. The passive ability itself is just meant to modify the game a bit, so reusing a scroll once in a game is pretty good. Lowering the chance on higher rarity items just makes the Mage weaker, so the suggestion seems bad.

The Priest starts with a Wand of Protection. That means it lasts for 2 nights. That's a really long time. Giving them a resurrection item is ridiculously overpowered. As for more protection wands... Why? They would only need one more anyway before the game is done, and even then, it's still pretty unnecessary. The point is a minor increase in power, and two protections is very good to start the game with.

The Ranger gets a 33% chance to stop blocks and redirections (I think), which is unbelievably nice. Why give them more? They have plenty. And giving them the highest quality item in a pool is annoyingly stupid. You're very likely to stop a block or redirect during the game.

No to the Warrior. The Warrior is basically the antithesis to the Priest. Where the Priest is basically town-only, the Warrior is basically scum-only. Since their roles are meant to conflict, granting more power to the warrior is horrible. The minor boost to the Warrior is to occasionally avoid protections or roleblocks. So, they might avoid one in a game. Giving the Warrior kill resistance is very, very bad. Kill resistance in general is powerful, but one that's permanent throughout the game? That is a significant boost in power.

[Bookthras]

You're using an action to do this. If you're not given free time to sacrifice these things, nobody will do it.

You are! My last suggestion included "you get an item and use it on your target this night" as possible result of the prayer...

But yeah. I guess it's much too complicated, much too random, and not quite good enough for players to justify its inclusion. Still, worth discussion, thanks for that. I still think it's good to look for things for people to do with their night actions when all they have is crappy items, though...

No to the Warrior. The Warrior is basically the antithesis to the Priest. Where the Priest is basically town-only, the Warrior is basically scum-only.

Yeah, as I said earlier, I'm fine with some roles being more effective for some alignments, and if people end up with the wrong one, it's their fault for choosing random. That being said, though, I still like the idea of a warrior having a chance (25-33%) of killing their killer instead of the ability to overcome protections; it makes it better for town & scum, and doesn't seem overpowered (is it? it's not kill resistance and it doesn't apply to lynches)...


But please tell me your thoughts about the new item ideas I posted earlier, and the scroll of mail, and the standardised flavour for night actions.

[webadict]

Potential ideas for new items:

• Amulet of reflection (rare? redirect): all actions that would have landed on you land on whoever targeted you instead.
• Scroll of domination (rare?): target is converted to your faction, they win with you; mafia/cult are immune.
• Amulet of Yendor (artefact): if you have this at the end of the game, you win, no matter what. (win exclusively? or just added survivor to wincon?)
• Scroll of taming (uncommon?): target will protect their target instead of whatever action they had chosen; if their chosen item was consumable, it is lost.
• Scroll of punishment (rare?): target is permanently roleblocked until they pray (see below) and their gods remove it.
• Potion/wand of polymorph: shoot at target (wand) or quaff potion (self) to change class for a random new class. Class items (like priest's /oProtect) are not lost. (maaaybe allow zap wand at self to turn inventory items to different items of same rarity, but rares/artefacts will resist? own class would change too, of course)

Amulet of Reflection: The first makes death impossible except by lynching. It also gives antimiller to scum, and immunity to actions. If, instead, it were changed to use the item on the user AS WELL AS the target, it would be better. However, it is still really powerful, seeing as how it is multi-use. If the first time it were used, it disappeared, I'd be fine with the original.

Scroll of Domination: Eh. Town can't use it, but Mafia, who already have a fairly devastating advantage, can. So, it's a really pro-scum item, since Mafia are immune to it anyhow. Town could use it to find Town, I suppose, but I think it's much too unbalanced for scum.

Amulet of Yendor: Actually, not a bad item. However, it is unusable by scum, except in case of a third party win. Town can freely use it, and for this, it should simply be Survivor wincon added. Otherwise, scum would be kicking themselves for getting it. I think if there was a bad reason to hold it, it'd be better.

Scroll of Taming: Fine. Name is meh.

Scroll of Punishment: No. Permanent roleblocking is REALLY bad in a game. The player gets frustrated. Also, it seemed shoehorned into there to help the praying thing be useful.

Blank of Polymorph: Totally fine. I actually added this item into RoguelikeBot, and thought it wasn't too bad.

[Bookthras]

Potential ideas for new items:

• Amulet of reflection (rare? redirect): all actions that would have landed on you land on whoever targeted you instead.
• Scroll of domination (rare?): target is converted to your faction, they win with you; mafia/cult are immune.
• Amulet of Yendor (artefact): if you have this at the end of the game, you win, no matter what. (win exclusively? or just added survivor to wincon?)
• Scroll of taming (uncommon?): target will protect their target instead of whatever action they had chosen; if their chosen item was consumable, it is lost.
• Scroll of punishment (rare?): target is permanently roleblocked until they pray (see below) and their gods remove it.
• Potion/wand of polymorph: shoot at target (wand) or quaff potion (self) to change class for a random new class. Class items (like priest's /oProtect) are not lost. (maaaybe allow zap wand at self to turn inventory items to different items of same rarity, but rares/artefacts will resist? own class would change too, of course)

Amulet of Reflection: The first makes death impossible except by lynching. It also gives antimiller to scum, and immunity to actions. If, instead, it were changed to use the item on the user AS WELL AS the target, it would be better. However, it is still really powerful, seeing as how it is multi-use. If the first time it were used, it disappeared, I'd be fine with the original.

Scroll of Domination: Eh. Town can't use it, but Mafia, who already have a fairly devastating advantage, can. So, it's a really pro-scum item, since Mafia are immune to it anyhow. Town could use it to find Town, I suppose, but I think it's much too unbalanced for scum.

Amulet of Yendor: Actually, not a bad item. However, it is unusable by scum, except in case of a third party win. Town can freely use it, and for this, it should simply be Survivor wincon added. Otherwise, scum would be kicking themselves for getting it. I think if there was a bad reason to hold it, it'd be better.

Scroll of Taming: Fine. Name is meh.

Scroll of Punishment: No. Permanent roleblocking is REALLY bad in a game. The player gets frustrated. Also, it seemed shoehorned into there to help the praying thing be useful.

Blank of Polymorph: Totally fine. I actually added this item into RoguelikeBot, and thought it wasn't too bad.

OK, I agree with most of that. How about these?:


Scroll of Punishment: No. Yeah, I get it, and will drop it. I like the idea of praying, and of people having an alternate night action if their items suck, but as presented, this is not it. No scroll of punishment.

Amulet of Reflection (rare?): All actions that would have landed on you land on whoever targeted you instead. One-shot (reflecting all actions targeting you during the night), disappears when used.

Scroll of Domination: Target is converted to your faction, they win with you; mafia/cult are immune... As wuba said, usefulness for town is limited, but they could hire a mason, or find town, and 3rd parties can add a new brother to the brotherhood, or a free cult member, or another person wanting to lynch who you want to lynch, or an SK helper, or something else...  I think it has potential, but hard to balance. Maybe as a (semi) guaranteed special item for specific alignments? or given under certain circumstances with a successful die roll?

Amulet of Yendor: Survivor wincon added. I like this, and think it very much in the roguelike spirit.

Scroll of Taming: Target will protect their target instead of whatever action they had chosen; if their chosen item was consumable, it is lost... I agree it's not the best name. Maybe "scroll of override"? or "scroll of defend other"?

Foo of Polymorph: use on other to change their class. I'd like to explicitly discuss whether one can use it on oneself to polymorph one's inventories to different items of the same rarity class.


All that being said, Toaster (and wuba): What are your thoughts about making Roguelikes a "PM allowed" kind of game, like Paranormals? Or making the "scroll of mail" allow for a response? How about having every player start with a one-shot scroll of mail?

I'd very much like to see how this would play out. PMs are fun.

[webadict]

Scroll of Punishment: No. Yeah, I get it, and will drop it. I like the idea of praying, and of people having an alternate night action if their items suck, but as presented, this is not it. No scroll of punishment.

Amulet of Reflection (rare?): All actions that would have landed on you land on whoever targeted you instead. One-shot (reflecting all actions targeting you during the night), disappears when used.

Scroll of Domination: Target is converted to your faction, they win with you; mafia/cult are immune... As wuba said, usefulness for town is limited, but they could hire a mason, or find town, and 3rd parties can add a new brother to the brotherhood, or a free cult member, or another person wanting to lynch who you want to lynch, or an SK helper, or something else...  I think it has potential, but hard to balance. Maybe as a (semi) guaranteed special item for specific alignments? or given under certain circumstances with a successful die roll?

Amulet of Yendor: Survivor wincon added. I like this, and think it very much in the roguelike spirit.

Scroll of Taming: Target will protect their target instead of whatever action they had chosen; if their chosen item was consumable, it is lost... I agree it's not the best name. Maybe "scroll of override"? or "scroll of defend other"?

Foo of Polymorph: use on other to change their class. I'd like to explicitly discuss whether one can use it on oneself to polymorph one's inventories to different items of the same rarity class.


All that being said, Toaster (and wuba): What are your thoughts about making Roguelikes a "PM allowed" kind of game, like Paranormals? Or making the "scroll of mail" allow for a response? How about having every player start with a one-shot scroll of mail?

I'd very much like to see how this would play out. PMs are fun.

Amulet of Reflection: One or the other. Not both. If it's the one-shot, it has to be a Scroll of Reflection.

Foo of Polymorph: On others. It's more fun.

As for PMs, it doesn't matter too much. It'd give more power to the Town, which is something it needs.

[Toaster]

Long overdue, I have finally reviewed the item list.  Mostly I just clarified rulings, but I did note that hallucination is obvious to the target in all cases.

Added item:  Scroll of Poison!  Now in uncommon scroll form instead of just rare wand form.


As far as flavor is concerned, I do have a few consistent things.  Inspection makes you see a glow around the target.  Watch/Track make a mist appear that forms in the face(s) of the players in the result.  Hallucination is just fun to write.


Now that I think about it, class inspection just feels weak, as a whole, given scum often has no issue with true-claiming their class.

Potential ideas for new items:

• Amulet of reflection (rare? redirect): all actions that would have landed on you land on whoever targeted you instead.
• Scroll of domination (rare?): target is converted to your faction, they win with you; mafia/cult are immune.
• Amulet of Yendor (artefact): if you have this at the end of the game, you win, no matter what. (win exclusively? or just added survivor to wincon?)
• Scroll of taming (uncommon?): target will protect their target instead of whatever action they had chosen; if their chosen item was consumable, it is lost.
• Scroll of punishment (rare?): target is permanently roleblocked until they pray (see below) and their gods remove it.
• Potion/wand of polymorph: shoot at target (wand) or quaff potion (self) to change class for a random new class. Class items (like priest's /oProtect) are not lost. (maaaybe allow zap wand at self to turn inventory items to different items of same rarity, but rares/artefacts will resist? own class would change too, of course)

1.  Amulet of Warding and Ring of Mimicry (both rare) already fill similar roles.
2.  Very strong for scum; oddball for third parties (Think SK or Jester); weak for townies.  I don't think I can justify it.  See RM3, though- similar mechanics can be given out in special cases.
3.  Interesting. 
4.  I like it.  Consider it added.
5.  I agree with Web on this- a bit too anti-fun.
6.  I'll split this into two.

Scroll/Wand of Polymorph Other:  Target changes into a random new class, losing benefits of old and gaining benefits of new.  The target's items are unaffected.

Potion of Raw Chaos:  Once per day or night, you may dip an item into this potion.  This item will be changed into a new item of the same rarity, though it has a 25% chance to degrade into a lower rarity.  The potion is unstable, though, and has a 10% chance to explode in your face and kill you.  This does not count as an action and will be processed as soon as possible.

Scroll of Mail:  Despite my continual buffing of them, they still remain unused.  I'll add that the target may send a short reply (25 words or less) no later than end of phase.


Prayer:  Maybe in another gametype- adding that would clutter things up quite a bit.


Web:  What are the stats for the RLBot's Archaeologist?  I'm considering throwing it in the mix.  As far as the other classes, I'm pretty much happy with them, though the Transmuter seems a bit weak.


Pool:  I'm thinking about upping the start to six items with two guaranteed uncommon or better items.  Mulching a random common at a certain point once a day may work as well, but I'm less sold on that.  (I already forget to announce the count of the thing most of the time...)

[webadict]

Web:  What are the stats for the RLBot's Archaeologist?  I'm considering throwing it in the mix.  As far as the other classes, I'm pretty much happy with them, though the Transmuter seems a bit weak.


Pool:  I'm thinking about upping the start to six items with two guaranteed uncommon or better items.  Mulching a random common at a certain point once a day may work as well, but I'm less sold on that.  (I already forget to announce the count of the thing most of the time...)

59%/28%/11%/2%

It's actually not even that unbalancing, but the 2% artifact is what makes it sweet.

[Bookthras]

3.  [Amulet of Yendor] Interesting.

Ruling? I agree with wuba earlier that it shouldn't be an exclusive win, but an added survivor wincon. A townie with it can win even if the scum win, a mafia-ally or brother with it can win even if the scum/buddies are all lynched. I still like it, more because its intrinsic roguelike appeal than anything else.

4.  [scroll of taming] I like it.  Consider it added.
5.  [praying/punishment] I agree with Web on this- a bit too anti-fun.

Great on both counts. Yeah, the praying sounded more fun in my head than how it would actually work out.

ETA: on the scroll of taming, it clearly should prevent a mafiakill if I read it at the scum who was going to kill that night, even if his buddy assisted him with one of those "you can't be redirected" or "your kills bypass protection" or whatever effects, yes? Also, what should the effect be if my chosen target used a non-targeted item, like the scroll that tells you how many artefacts exist? I'm thinking the taming goes through, turning the oracle into a protection with no target (essentially fizzling and being consumed with no effect). Does this sound right?

6.  [Polymorph] I'll split this into two.

Scroll/Wand of Polymorph Other:  Target changes into a random new class, losing benefits of old and gaining benefits of new.  The target's items are unaffected.

Potion of Raw Chaos:  Once per day or night, you may dip an item into this potion.  This item will be changed into a new item of the same rarity, though it has a 25% chance to degrade into a lower rarity.  The potion is unstable, though, and has a 10% chance to explode in your face and kill you.  This does not count as an action and will be processed as soon as possible.

I like the "polymorph other"; yes, items should be unaffected, meaning that you being turned into a priest wouldn't give you a wand of protection (would indeed have no actual effect if you were, say, a bard beforehand).
The Potion of Raw Chaos is nice, and being a free action is good, but I think the 10% killing chance is a bit... much. More so if it can happen during the day. I'd be in favour of dropping the kill chance altogether, or at least lowering it to 5% or less (so you only die if your d20 rolls a 1). Or keep it at 10% but make it so you can sprinkle it on your whole inventory, with each non-artefact item having a 50% chance of changing into same rarity, 25% chance into lower rarity, 25% chance no effect.

Scroll of Mail:  Despite my continual buffing of them, they still remain unused.  I'll add that the target may send a short reply (25 words or less) no later than end of phase.

Great! How about the idea of everyone starting with one as part of one's adventurer kit? Or maybe just some classes? Or add a guaranteed way to get one: one could say "this day, instead of adventuring or looking into the common pool, I will endeavour instead to go to the post office", so they get a guaranteed scroll of mail for future use instead of the random item they would otherwise have gotten.

Pool:  I'm thinking about upping the start to six items with two guaranteed uncommon or better items.  Mulching a random common at a certain point once a day may work as well, but I'm less sold on that.  (I already forget to announce the count of the thing most of the time...)

I like it, and like wuba's 2% artefact chance a lot, but still seems insufficient. I still like the idea of (at least a chance of) nightly drops, and mulching of swag.

[Hapah]

Potion of Raw Chaos seems like Scroll of Danger Lite to me, at first glance. Less chance of murdering yourself, less gain (since you've got to sacrifice an item), but it is a free action.

[Urist Imiknorris]

It also gives use to some items that are otherwise pretty useless (wand of cantrips, scroll of enchant weapon). The question is, can a common item degrade in quality, and if so, is the potion used up to provide nothing?

[Toaster]

Amulet of Yendor:  I meant to go back to that one and obviously forgot.  I'm thinking make it add a survivor wincon, but perhaps there should be a downside.  Perhaps a strong benefit to getting rid of it somehow?  Maybe the "good but also bad- benefit to sacrificing" item effect should be separate.  Needs a bit more thinking.


Scroll of Taming:  Since it targets the action of the player and not the player itself, it would change the kill into a protect regardless.  The protect action would then be unredirectable, or unblockable, or whatever.  Use it on someone with Grayswandir and they're protected twice!

Nontargeted items... tough call between a self-protect and nothing.  A third viable option is the ?oTaming has no effect and the untargeted action goes through as normal.  Issue is the items with no specific target are a mixed back (compare ?oTime Stop, Oracle Scroll, and Scroll of Teleport- something that targets everyone, no one, and self.)


Potion of Raw Chaos:  I think I didn't make it clear that this item was reusable!  That's what prompted the downside- yes, you can screw with your inventory lots, but how much risk is worth it?  The potion would be rare, as it's powerful.

I think adding Scroll of Exchange at uncommon that does the same thing with no downside (and no risk to degrade) isn't a bad idea, since it's basically a one shot version of the Transmuter class power.  Perhaps drop to common and make an uncommon wand version?

[Bookthras]

Amulet of Yendor:  I meant to go back to that one and obviously forgot.  I'm thinking make it add a survivor wincon, but perhaps there should be a downside.  Perhaps a strong benefit to getting rid of it somehow?  Maybe the "good but also bad- benefit to sacrificing" item effect should be separate.  Needs a bit more thinking.

True. In the game, having the Amulet means you can't level teleport, casting spells requires more mana, you may be suddenly teleported when you don't want to (mysterious force), and tough monsters are generated randomly around you from time to time... perhaps make it so protections on you automatically fail? Being a survivor is less fun if you can't be protected... Or perhaps have a 1/3 chance of any action you take being randomly redirected or have no effect?

Scroll of Taming:  Use it on someone with Grayswandir and they're protected twice!

I love that! Emergent gameplay for the win!

Nontargeted items... tough call between a self-protect and nothing.  A third viable option is the ?oTaming has no effect and the untargeted action goes through as normal.

Yeah. Maybe the easiest is what you say, you can only be tamed if you were going to do something to someone, for non-targeted items, it's the taming scroll that fizzles with no effect.

Potion of Raw Chaos:  I think I didn't make it clear that this item was reusable!

That changes everything! Much nicer. Can be used multiple times per day/night? Yeah, in that case perhaps 10% is reasonable... still seems to high, but man, that's a nice potion.

I think adding Scroll of Exchange at uncommon that does the same thing with no downside (and no risk to degrade) isn't a bad idea, since it's basically a one shot version of the Transmuter class power.  Perhaps drop to common and make an uncommon wand version?

But it's still a free action, yes? If so, I like it, uncommon for wand, common for scroll.