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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released  (Read 184230 times)

monk12

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #180 on: April 05, 2011, 11:38:53 am »

Actually, come to think of it, do elephants/cows/rhino's etc have an appreciably different skin toughness than a human? I'm pretty sure their hides are tougher than ours, and if that isn't modeled then it could be a factor in this situation.

Beardless

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #181 on: April 05, 2011, 01:51:54 pm »

Thanks to all the kind folks recommending ways to get a better DF experience with my old computer, but I'm afraid it's a more fundamental problem. Low FPS I can handle (I usually get 5 or so on embark), but my old iMac doesn't have the right chip to run anything more recent than what I've got. (Mac-bashing trolls: I'm not in the mood today. Take it somewhere else.) I'll be able to afford a new one eventually, so I can wait. And look at the DF I have to look forward to when I do!

The point is that combat/wound system in DF works well in some situations and awful in others - it is at its very best against armed humanoid opponents, and at its worst against beasts or non-living opponents. It is more a question of fine-tuning than bug fixing, IMO.

So... it's at its very best for some of the time, and worst for all the rest? Pity there's no middle ground. ;D

Also, what's this about dwarfs walking up to badgers? Are they not afraid of wildlife anymore?
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #182 on: April 05, 2011, 01:55:28 pm »

Actually, come to think of it, do elephants/cows/rhino's etc have an appreciably different skin toughness than a human? I'm pretty sure their hides are tougher than ours, and if that isn't modeled then it could be a factor in this situation.

All skin uses the standard templates, as far as I can recall.  All layers are thicker as the creature is scaled up - almost all creatures are quadrupeds with essentially the same body model, they are just proportionatly larger in every way as they scale up.

(Wheras a real elephant has significantly more massive bones than smaller quadrupeds, thanks to the Square-Cube Law.)


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This means that the nibble attacks are causing constant fainting from an elephant (mass: 5,000 kg) being bitten about 30 times from badgers or other small mammals...

Once 30 pain points from 30 individual 1 pain injuries is added up, it causes fainting, wheras having a shattered bone would generate about 20 pain.  (And creature size isn't a factor.)

Let's take a step back on how large an elephant is. I would think it obvious that they would reel or faint from constant barraging pain, as it is a mental state based on nerves to the brain, not how thick a creature's leg is or how big they are overall. Being stung by 30 bees or by one small furry animal 30 times could very well make anyone fall over from the pain. If you were being constantly bit all the way through the skin by a relentless raging rat all over your body and nothing you did stopped it from happening because it would keep darting about and coming back around and barraging you again, what do you think your brain would do? It would be like "dripping water torture".

The largest animal in the world, the whale, will easily reel from pain if a creature just big enough to pierce it's skin were constantly piercing the flesh over and over and over and not letting up. I had a game when I was little called EcoQuest (actually I still have it somewhere) where you have to save a bunch of ocean creatures from man-made problems that they don't understand and a big whale is stuck in one place from the pain of one little harpoon shoved all the way through his lip, holding him captive. He wafts in and out of consciousness from pain and nausea and it's pretty darn accurate to what would happen to a person if they didn't have hands or fingers to remove a barbed needle connected to a string from their lip.

So let me clarify what I said earlier: being bigger doesn't give you more mental capacity. Withstanding mental issues such as pain and fear can be overcome with a determined personality and training. In addition to that, now that you've mentioned needles piercing an elephant's skin, they actually do very well with acupuncture procedures, but only because it's a small one-time-pain, not tons of needles all over the body at one time. I don't think anyone could withstand something like that without proper training.

Edit: Haha... Hell, that reminds me of when I passed out once from the pain of peeling skin on a rotting bruise where a brown recluse spider had bit me right on the face. Not fun. *shudder* :o

All I can say to this is... no.

The pain of having your skin pierced is nothing compared to the pain of having a major organ ruptured or a broken bone.  Twenty needle pricks does not add up to the same number of "pain points" as someone ripping off your arm or cutting open your bowels and strangling you with your own intestines.  This is a definite Small Integer Problem.

In fact, look up the lovely little practice of Scarification (also tatoos, on a lower level) for examples of people very, very repeatedly cutting their skin open (and then potentially stuffing something into the wound), and not passing out from the pain.
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Spectre Incarnate

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #183 on: April 05, 2011, 03:16:18 pm »


All I can say to this is... no.
Um.. I'm sorry? ???

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The pain of having your skin pierced is nothing compared to the pain of having a major organ ruptured or a broken bone.
On the contrary, many people have said that getting a paper cut is worse than a broken bone, unless the bone itself has shards poking through the muscle and the skin where the pain receptors are. Some people don't even notice they have a broken bone because they don't move it enough to pierce flesh. My brother said his broken wrist was only "mild soreness", with no sharp pains, so he didn't even know he'd broken it. He thought he'd only bruised it.
(As for organs, some do have pain receptors, some don't, and sometimes things lead to organ pain in other ways, like muscle cramps.. etc.)

Edit: Oh, and I broke my collar bone when I was a kid and had no idea and it fused back together a little wonky. I always forget about that. lol

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In fact, look up the lovely little practice of Scarification (also tatoos, on a lower level) for examples of people very, very repeatedly cutting their skin open (and then potentially stuffing something into the wound), and not passing out from the pain.
I'm aware of practices such as that, and I already addressed that sort of pain. You can withstand pain with a determined personalty and/or training, such as going into a parlor for the purpose of getting a tattoo or performing a ritual of scarification, which is far different than being thrust into combat or dealing with a pain you weren't expecting. Those people are going into it, knowing what they are getting into and are fully prepared for it, and the area to be scarred/tattooed is one small area that the brain can easily redirect focus from. Also the people performing the tattoo/ritual on the recipient are usually talking to them a lot to help them keep their mind off the pain.

All in all, I was enjoying this friendly debate, but I get the impression that you aren't really considering all my points, so I think I'll bow out now.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 04:30:43 pm by Spectre Incarnate »
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profit

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #184 on: April 05, 2011, 04:16:02 pm »

but my old iMac doesn't have the right chip to run anything more recent than what I've got.

Have you considered a hackintosh =)

http://www.hackintosh.com/
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Spectre Incarnate

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #185 on: April 05, 2011, 04:21:02 pm »


well, i kinda like having the badgers like they are-they are small, worthless beings that cause chaos-but no real damage...
but yeah, it is a balance issue for the ability, should any other monster/creature use it
Aww, poor "small, worthless beings"..   :P
But yeah, very true if it were given to other creatures. I think giving badgers rage was a good way to test the feature and it definitely needs scaling back a bit.

Perhaps if there was something similar to adrenaline...

It could also offer a speed boost to the creature being attacked if they do not plan on fighting back
Oh, hell yeah, I think a fight-or-flight response of sorts would be great. If there were beneficial syndromes, you could release hormones after a certain amount of pain has been inflicted, but that's probably overdoing it. I can just imagine the S&M crowd.. lol

Master Toady, How about NOPAIN being 0-100% tag instead of on/off? Same for NoFear, Fleequick and Likes_Fighting.
Very much in agreement here. And don't forget Prone to Rage.

Actually, come to think of it, do elephants/cows/rhino's etc have an appreciably different skin toughness than a human? I'm pretty sure their hides are tougher than ours, and if that isn't modeled then it could be a factor in this situation.
Also very true, and some mods do deal with that. Genesis has "skin" and "toughskin" templates, so you might just be better off grabbing some of those add-ons or making your own.

I'll be able to afford a new one eventually, so I can wait. And look at the DF I have to look forward to when I do!
Well, what is your current processor speed? This game only supports up to a single processor chip at 3.24 ghz at 32bit. So, even if you get a 64bit computer with multiple cores, it'll still only use one core. I'm sure you'll use the computer for other programs, but I just wanted to warn ya about that.

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Also, what's this about dwarfs walking up to badgers? Are they not afraid of wildlife anymore?
I think the badgers are walking up to dwarves and getting pissed about the dwarves being there... even though they are walking up to the dwarves. lol

« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 04:23:34 pm by Spectre Incarnate »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #186 on: April 05, 2011, 10:34:39 pm »

Quote
The pain of having your skin pierced is nothing compared to the pain of having a major organ ruptured or a broken bone.
On the contrary, many people have said that getting a paper cut is worse than a broken bone, unless the bone itself has shards poking through the muscle and the skin where the pain receptors are. Some people don't even notice they have a broken bone because they don't move it enough to pierce flesh. My brother said his broken wrist was only "mild soreness", with no sharp pains, so he didn't even know he'd broken it. He thought he'd only bruised it.
(As for organs, some do have pain receptors, some don't, and sometimes things lead to organ pain in other ways, like muscle cramps.. etc.)

Edit: Oh, and I broke my collar bone when I was a kid and had no idea and it fused back together a little wonky. I always forget about that. lol

Quote
In fact, look up the lovely little practice of Scarification (also tatoos, on a lower level) for examples of people very, very repeatedly cutting their skin open (and then potentially stuffing something into the wound), and not passing out from the pain.
I'm aware of practices such as that, and I already addressed that sort of pain. You can withstand pain with a determined personalty and/or training, such as going into a parlor for the purpose of getting a tattoo or performing a ritual of scarification, which is far different than being thrust into combat or dealing with a pain you weren't expecting. Those people are going into it, knowing what they are getting into and are fully prepared for it, and the area to be scarred/tattooed is one small area that the brain can easily redirect focus from. Also the people performing the tattoo/ritual on the recipient are usually talking to them a lot to help them keep their mind off the pain.

But this goes back to why pain exists in the first place - it's there as a means of conveying information to the creature.  Creatures are built to withstand the level of pain they can reasonably expect to encouter.  If an amount of pain inflicted by stepping on a sharp pebble is allowed to add up by every sharp pebble a creature like an elephant would be stepping on on a daily basis, they would constantly be fainting from the pain of walking around.

You might talk about "training", but there's a certain level of conditioning involved.  You mentioned something about "larger creatures don't have larger mental capacities", but that's beside the point - having more intelligence doesn't make you less sensitive to pain by any stretch of the imagination.  Being sensitive to pain requires MORE mental development - you have to specifically develop the nerve sensors to convey that information to the brain.  It's very easy evolutionarily to just dampen the pain if it becomes necessary because getting a few mosquito bites causes creatures to pass out from the pain. 

Likewise, if elephants could be killed by relatively tiny creatures performing a few minor nibble attacks on it, every tiny creature in the same environment would have evolved to eating elephants, because they're such wusses that a shrew could kill an elephant by forcing it to pass out after a few nibbles, and then they could go in and eat the elephant's eyes or other tender flesh.

In real life, elephants often wind up pretty battle-scarred from fighting off larger predators like lions.  (Who have four claws to attack with in one swipe - that's four separate scratches! Four pain points in one swipe! It only takes six of those to make the elephant pass out!)

Animals are naturally resistant to pain just because they simply have to be, or they wouldn't survive.  It's only humans who get all sensitive about silly things like paper cuts.  It's just people who have forgotten how painful it was when they got major bone fractures who compare their most recent paper cut to their bone fractures and say the paper cut was worse.  (That forgetting how painful it was is a natural coping mechanism - as is just plain not fainting from pain.)



Further, as someone who has had paper cuts and needle pricks and tearing out major ligaments and broken bones, things are more painful when you don't have the adrenaline pumping for one thing.  A paper cut is painful only because you focus on it.  I've had cuts I didn't even notice until someone pointed out to me that I was bleeding.  If I had thirty cuts I didn't even notice I was bleeding, I wouldn't be fainting from the pain I wasn't feeling.  When you're being swarmed by angry badgers, you're probably thinking more about keeping the angry badgers away from your eyes than about how much five different cuts hurt.

Besides, remember that old joke?  The one where a guy complains about how his foot hurts, so the other guy breaks his arm.  The first guy screams in pain and asks why he did that, and the second guy responds, "Well, now you're not thinking about how much your foot hurts, are you?"

An insignificant wound just isn't painful unless you're focusing on it.  (And that's how those scarification people pull through those procedures - they just don't focus on it.) 

All in all, I was enjoying this friendly debate, but I get the impression that you aren't really considering all my points, so I think I'll bow out now.

I'm not sure what you mean by that...

I'm responding to your points in order.  I'm just disagreeing with the premise of your argument.
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Dante

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #187 on: April 06, 2011, 05:58:19 am »

In my very first .25 embark, a honey badger drowned my broker. Since then I have respected badgers enough to keep them away from my livestock.

Jeoshua

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #188 on: April 06, 2011, 07:29:57 am »

my old iMac doesn't have the right chip to run anything more recent than what I've got. (Mac-bashing trolls: I'm not in the mood today. Take it somewhere else.) I'll be able to afford a new one eventually, so I can wait. And look at the DF I have to look forward to when I do!

That's your problem.  There is no way to make a computer that old, Mac or PC, to run a game like DF with anything approaching a good experience.  Is it one of the berry colored ones? God... I haven't seen one of those in AGES!
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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #189 on: April 06, 2011, 08:00:44 am »

my old iMac doesn't have the right chip to run anything more recent than what I've got. (Mac-bashing trolls: I'm not in the mood today. Take it somewhere else.) I'll be able to afford a new one eventually, so I can wait. And look at the DF I have to look forward to when I do!

That's your problem.  There is no way to make a computer that old, Mac or PC, to run a game like DF with anything approaching a good experience.  Is it one of the berry colored ones? God... I haven't seen one of those in AGES!
Erm, sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm running DF on a '99 IBM.
...
yeah.
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Knarfle

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #190 on: April 06, 2011, 08:05:54 am »

Pain is pretty messed up. I pitted a giant lion against 5 cats, expecting the giant lion to smash the cats. Instead, the cats made the giant lion pass out from pain shortly into the fight. Then they just kept scratching the shit out of him. He'd come to, then immediately pass out again.

  I left dorf fort running like this for hours, and the giant lion never died, but he never attacked again.


  I was kind of disappointed, I was expecting...
Giant Lion shakes cat around by lower body!
The part flies off in an arc/remains in the Lion's grip.

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #191 on: April 06, 2011, 08:15:18 am »

every "adventurer" I sent in in the arena mode made it all the way up to the 20 groundhogs, and no further.
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TomiTapio

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #192 on: April 06, 2011, 09:50:24 am »

In my very first .25 embark, a honey badger drowned my broker. Since then I have respected badgers enough to keep them away from my livestock.
For each unnaturally square-walled pond, dig a "safety ramp" so people without swimming skill can walk out. Saves many lives on some maps.

My current tunings results...  variable hunter skills in action. 5th wooden bolt making my "bucket-sized 9kg bog frog" faint from pain. New frog, 9th wooden bolt, faint. 3rd wooden bolt faint: cumulative damage is 4 tendons 1 nerve 1 fracture 1 torn muscle. New frog, first metal bolt tears stomach -> faint. Seems reasonably tuned skin/fat pain now.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Genesis Arena test... 10 badgers vs. elephant, both have natural skill as per our mod, elephant faints on page 16 of its combatlog. It managed to kill 3 badgers.
10 wolves vs. elephant, one wolf fell.
alligator vs 10 badgers, it got one badger dead.
red dragon vs 10 badgers: BOOM! No badgers. Her both front legs are cut open.

every "adventurer" I sent in in the arena mode made it all the way up to the 20 groundhogs, and no further.
What kind of dodging skill the adventurers have, and what kind of armor (and armor-user skill)?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 10:18:29 am by TomiTapio »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #193 on: April 06, 2011, 10:47:11 am »

Wait, tearing the skin (no matter how small the tear was) was worth half as much as ripping open a muscle?  That basically guarantees the problem - two tiny pinpricks is worth as much pain as impaling someone on a spear.

As it stands, though, the biggest problem I see is that someone poking your skin with a needle twice is worth twice as many pain points as someone taking a giant razor, and shearing off all the skin and some of the fat off your back.  The first of those is minor, but generates 12 pain points in this game.  The second of those is utterly horrific to concieve of, but generates 10 (or less, depending on how much pain that inflicts to only partially harm the fat) pain points.

Like I was joking before, having a single 8-inch-long cut from a single tiger's claw seems to deal a quarter as much pain as as having all four claws rake a 2-inch-long cut apiece.  Four injuries, regardless of the magnitude, is four times as painful.



Anyway, I think one of the big things is that the elephant almost never dodges a hoary marmot.  The elephant will almost never hit a hoary marmot, and the hoary marmot never misses.

The most effective tactic an elephant has is to just charge at the enemy, and hope you knock it over, so you get a chance to gore it while it's down.

Not that this is necessarily a bad system - it makes some sense that it's easier to hit something that's relatively the size of the broad side of a barn to you.  Still, I'd like to see elephants have some sort of "flop over on top of them" attack for the swarming types of attackers.  Stop, Drop, and Roll would be a useful attack against all those annoying gnats that have latched onto your flank.
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Greiger

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #194 on: April 06, 2011, 12:04:18 pm »

That would be interesting if a significantly larger creature could do something like attack with a bodypart that has something wrestling it (biting or otherwise) and just smash the attached creature into the ground by choosing to attack with that bodypart.  Massive bludgeon damage to random parts akin to the current damage from long falls to the unfortunate target, with a chance to evade by dodging (and releasing the grip) Downside for the large creature is that if the part isn't a [limb] part the attacker is grounded by doing it.

But isn't stuff like that already planned for the future?  I recall reading sometime ago that there are plans for special attacks against significantly smaller creatures.  Like a crushing attack for bronze colossi and the ability for dragons to stop just nibbling at bits and just eat an opponent.   Hell I think that last one even had a couple bloats or whatever they were called associated with it.  Though my memory is fuzzy.
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