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[Sowelu]

Disclaimer, I keep thinking it would be awesome to go to a bible college to learn how to be a preacher and all these associated things.  I wouldn't become a Christian preacher...probably...most of the time...but it would be useful stuff to know. 

But here's my point: Do you really thing that God wants all his pastors to have a diploma as opposed to being learned in the scriptures themselves? Which do you think is more important?

Well, honestly? The diploma.

Yeah, from my knowledge of scripture, I would agree about that too.

[Vector]

And I'm fairly sure that you don't have to go to college to know how to handle that.

My grandfather had to learn a few languages and know the Bible up, down, and sideways, and so on.  Rituals, public speaking, how to answer theological debate, character-building, hour upon hour of difficult study.  There's loads of stuff to learn.

We used to play "stump the preacher" with him, where we'd read a random verse from scripture and he'd have to tell us the book.  Often, he'd be able to quote the precise line.  He used to have to run off day or night to give counsel, sometimes for people who had been pulled in for a crime and so on... did loads of weddings, lots and lots of sermons, and give a mini-lecture to his family every single morning from multiple theological books.  That, and it's basically unpaid.  It's a fucking hard job, and I have the utmost respect for anyone who pursues it with a pure heart.

[Mindmaker]

Oh, bible quotes...
It's really suprising how much topics can be covered by that book.
My uncle could dish out a fitting bible quote to any conversation. And the way my father is, it always escaleted in a religious argument...

[Askot Bokbondeler]

jesus himself was quite openly religious, i'd think... but i generally think of him as the king of hypocrites

His teachings were written down by four different people with four different agendas. It'd be more surprising if there weren't conflicts.

[/quote]

i think of jesus as a fictional character. one can judge a fictional character even without having known the real historical figure it was based on... in fact, i'd even say historical jesus' opinion is not that pertinent, it's not on it that modern western society is based upon

on the op, my opinion is that religion generally pertains to a set of beliefs that may often contradict facts, since science is theoretically about observing facts, somebody confronted with observations who contradict his religious dogmas may have to chose between religion or the scientific method, therefore, religion may be an obstacle to overcome in the pursuit of truth through science

religion was born as an explanation to natural phenomena in ancient times, and was basically composed of invented mythologies to be taken as facts. it may have valuable philosophical thoughts, but then, why don't we strip it of all mysticism and unprovable entities and just take the ethical considerations? probably because one might find some notions harder to defend if he cant claim they're right because god said so, or because it felt magically right in their heart\soul\aura\invisible pink thing

my personal opinion on religion is that there are so many, and if they all are unprovable, even if they were remotely possible they'd still be pointless... they're all just different shades of pink of the invisible pink unicorn

EDIT:fuck, i knew there'd be some ninjas, but 17?
EDIT2:i see the conversation shifted quite a bit... eh

[Criptfeind]

i'd even say historical jesus' opinion is not that pertinent, it's not on it that modern western society is based upon

You know, that is definitely true in some ways. In others though you could not be more wrong. Some lessons are timeless and many more we have not moved past the point where they are useful.

why don't we strip it of all mysticism and unprovable entities and just take the ethical considerations?

We don't do that because that is not how people, for the most part, work. We can not just strip away reasons and leave the end result, even if the end result is inherently good.

People just don't do goodness for itself.

[scriver]

But here's my point: Do you really thing that God wants all his pastors to have a diploma as opposed to being learned in the scriptures themselves? Which do you think is more important?

Does one have to choose? Are these somehow opposed? Do you automatically forget all about the bible when you learn basic economics? Your logic is flawed, how is that an arguments against priestucation?

[fqllve]

i think of jesus as a fictional character. one can judge a fictional character even without having known the real historical figure it was based on... in fact, i'd even say historical jesus' opinion is not that pertinent, it's not on it that modern western society is based upon

I don't generally think of Jesus as an actual historical figure myself. But even considering him as purely fictional, he was still written by four (or more) different authors. You have to take that into account when examining the consistency of his teachings.

[Urist is dead tome]

on the op, my opinion is that religion generally pertains to a set of beliefs that may often contradict facts,

Could you think of some examples of this?

[KaguroDraven]

i think of jesus as a fictional character. one can judge a fictional character even without having known the real historical figure it was based on... in fact, i'd even say historical jesus' opinion is not that pertinent, it's not on it that modern western society is based upon

I don't generally think of Jesus as an actual historical figure myself. But even considering him as purely fictional, he was still written by four (or more) different authors. You have to take that into account when examining the consistency of his teachings.

Please clarify this for me since I'm confused.
Do you mean you think Jesus was a completely fictional person who did not exist, or do you mean that you think the way he is represented in the bible is fictional?

[Criptfeind]

i think of jesus as a fictional character. one can judge a fictional character even without having known the real historical figure it was based on... in fact, i'd even say historical jesus' opinion is not that pertinent, it's not on it that modern western society is based upon

I don't generally think of Jesus as an actual historical figure myself. But even considering him as purely fictional, he was still written by four (or more) different authors. You have to take that into account when examining the consistency of his teachings.

Please clarify this for me since I'm confused.
Do you mean you think Jesus was a completely fictional person who did not exist, or do you mean that you think the way he is represented in the bible is fictional?

Wait wait wait?

Does it matter?

[KaguroDraven]

To the discussion? No it doesn't matter, but I'm personily just curious.

[fqllve]

Sorry. I'm not against Jesus being a historical figure, after all Charlemagne was, but I haven't seen any compelling evidence for it so I don't generally consider the possibility.

The Jesus of the Bible is definitely fictionalized to some extent though, due to the authorial problem.

[CoughDrop]

on the op, my opinion is that religion generally pertains to a set of beliefs that may often contradict facts,

Could you think of some examples of this?

I can't really speak for other religions, but I do know that the Bible often contradicts itself.
How can a religion stay consistent with facts when it can't even stay consistent with itself?
If you're going to ask me for sauce then I'd say go google it yourself. There are more than enough sources for you to make an educated decision.

As for if Jesus Christ was real or not, we don't really have damning evidence either way. But considering the amount of fictional characters being spewed out around the same time and with such close parallels to Jesus, it does make one think.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

i think of jesus as a fictional character. one can judge a fictional character even without having known the real historical figure it was based on... in fact, i'd even say historical jesus' opinion is not that pertinent, it's not on it that modern western society is based upon

I don't generally think of Jesus as an actual historical figure myself. But even considering him as purely fictional, he was still written by four (or more) different authors. You have to take that into account when examining the consistency of his teachings.

Please clarify this for me since I'm confused.
Do you mean you think Jesus was a completely fictional person who did not exist, or do you mean that you think the way he is represented in the bible is fictional?

i think he probably existed, and probably preached something so different from what we see in the gospels(which probably weren't even written by any of the apostles who give them their names) that his relevance borders nil, therefore i assume that when we're talking about jesus' opinion we're talking about the jesus whose opinion we know

on the op, my opinion is that religion generally pertains to a set of beliefs that may often contradict facts,

Could you think of some examples of this?

what do you mean? do you disagree with me that many, or at least some, religious authorities and religious scriptures state "truths" that disagree with observed phenomena?

i will provide one example: some religions claim a god or several exist. gods have not been proven true, therefore they may be false. some religions claim that their god is the only one.
if gods are proven false, then we must assume religions who claim gods exist contradict facts. is one god is proven true, we must assume religions who claimed their god was the only god and whose god was not the god proven true hold a belief that contradicts facts. if all gods are proven true, all religions who hold the belief that their god was the only one hold a belief that contradicts facts

even if gods remain unprovable, some religions must be wrong, therefore i win

[Criptfeind]

even if gods remain unprovable, some religions must be wrong, therefore i win

One, that is a really unhealthy way to approach a debate like this.

Two, what if all religions are distorted views of the same god?

Do you lose?