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[Vector]

Anyone educated with a mindset that accepts facts without proof or reason will be far less likely to persue a scientific career.

Huh.

Those mathematicians.  Tsk, tsk.

[Criptfeind]

Okay. So religion (like science itself) has both helped and hurt science. Yay...

How long tell thread lock/shit storm ending in thread lock?

[Sowelu]

Anyone educated with a mindset that accepts facts without proof or reason will be far less likely to persue a scientific career, or accept solutions provided by science.

I counter that religion expands imagination, and the ability to believe things that aren't intuitively obvious and personally observed is beneficial to scientific understanding.  False knowledge can be replaced, but a closed mind is hard to open.  Who's more likely to wind up believing in quantum mechanics:  Someone who grew up believing in Sky Jesus, or someone who doesn't trust anything they haven't seen with their own two eyes?

Not everyone has the luxury of studying science, but people with an open mind can believe it.  Religion doesn't have to close minds, and people can always (and often do) dismiss religion once they've outgrown it.

[Phmcw]

Anyone educated with a mindset that accepts facts without proof or reason will be far less likely to persue a scientific career.

Huh.

Those mathematicians.  Tsk, tsk.

Meh, an Axiom isn't supposed to be true, it's a basis for a mathematical theory. If the axioms of a mathematical theory happen to apply to a particular problem, then the theory is used.

So no, wrong example.

[Glowcat]

If you're attempting hyperbole, you should make it more clear so people don't think everyone in India is a backwards anti-science religious extremist.

Strange how they would get that when my argument was how Indian culture present a case where people accept BOTH science and superstition liberally. If anything I could be accused of calling the culture too open-minded.

[SniHjen]

In South Africa, it was for a long time the health policy that HIV didn't cause AIDS, and that HIV could be cured by Vitamins.
Even went as far as stating the HIV drugs caused AIDS.


@willfor

stop being a dick just for the sake of it.

If anything I could be accused of calling the culture too open-minded.

"If you mind is to open, your brain might fall out."

[Vector]

Meh, an Axiom isn't supposed to be true, it's a basis for a mathematical theory. If the axioms of a mathematical theory happen to apply to a particular problem, then the theory is used.

So no, wrong example.

Right.  We assume that the axioms apply to a given problem, without proof, because there is no proof.  Our observations are assumptions.

"Science," as an edifice, is far weaker than most people seem to think it is.

[Willfor]

@willfor

stop being a dick just for the sake of it.

I'm actually curious why you're pointing to me specifically considering the general tone this thread has taken, and the myriad targets it could be applied to.

However, I will polite-n up my replies from this point forward if it will make you feel better.

[Phmcw]

Right.  We assume that the axioms apply to a given problem, without proof, because there is no proof.  Our observations are assumptions.

"Science," as an edifice, is far weaker than most people seem to think it is.

It depend... what are you speaking about?
There is usually good reason to think that some axioms apply to a given situation, and the correctness of the assumption is linked to observation.

Our observations are assumptions.

I don't get it. Is this Plato's cave or are you trying to say something else?

[Criptfeind]

@willfor

stop being a dick just for the sake of it.

I'm actually curious why you're pointing to me specifically considering the general tone this thread has taken, and the myriad targets it could be applied to.

However, I will polite-n up my replies from this point forward if it will make you feel better.

False politeness and smileys make one a dick.

If you are not false then he was wrong, but it is really hard to tell.

[Vector]

I'm talking about Nietzsche, man.  Truth and Lies in an Extramoral Sense.

[Sowelu]

"Science," as an edifice, is far weaker than most people seem to think it is.

Well, some fields are very strong, and some are very weak.  Physics is great, no matter how much we still don't know.  Some parts of biology are quite good.  Nutritional science...not so much.  Medicine is very fuzzy, but of course it works through the sheer brute force of trial and error (and even then it's wrong a shocking amount, but a hell of a lot better than nothing).

Now, I suppose you might call religion a form of ethical science in line with the other squishy sciences like sociology.  Many of its practicioners take its axioms as truth while they work, for the sake of their immediate problems.  It does evolve over time to fit society--if slowly.  Stuff like that.

If you really think that your average Joe knows all that much about science, though...ask them about radiation.  Even your average Joe Atheist.  Religion does not cause scientific cluelessnes.

[SniHjen]

"Science," as an edifice, is far weaker than most people seem to think it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffr69ZovHKc

Feynman disagree.

<3

PPE: @willfor: Criptfeind got it.
sorry for not expaining that, that's kinda a jerk move from me. 

[chaoticag]

I'm starting to worry that a full blown argument is blowing. While heated-ness is okay, and chill preferred, I'm willing to lock this thread. And please don't jump in if you have nothing to say at all.

[KaguroDraven]

Anything that happens here can be claimed as Nikov's fault, before he threw in his 2 cents everyone who posted here was voteing for this to be locked before anything got started.