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[dwarf_sadist]

After looking at how to add multiple layers of clothing to your dwarfs, I got sick of doing it manually through the military uniform. Instead of having the current system, why not have it as slots that can be either empty, locked or full.

There would be 4 slot layers:
The "Inner" layer that would consist of socks, glove liners, shirts, pants, etc. They would be worn by civilians, as well as soldiers to keep warm and prevent armour chaffing.

The "Light" layer would be the leather, hardwood, thick or hard cloth, chainmail and ringmail. The light layer would be worn over the inner layer.

The "Heavy" layer would be the final armour layer made up of metal, stone and anything else strong enough to warrant it (think diamond/mercury alloy). It is worn over the light layer.

There will be slots solely on the main locations (head, body, legs, arms, feet, hands), with all three layers on each slot.

The "Outer" layer would be the accessories and equipment that the dwarfs carry around all the time, such as quivers, backpacks, snow shoes, rain coats (dwarf slicker), robes, cloaks and anything else that wouldn't be considered armour or clothing but is still worn. There would be more of these slots than the other three, because of all the other places you can place the accessories.

Some examples are the shoulders (for pauldrons, quivers, spare two-handed weapons), back (another spare weapon, backpack, flamethrower, rocket pack, etc), wrists (for strapped bucklers, throwing knives, spare daggers, hidden blades), waist (water pouch, sheath, more throwing knives, fanny pack), chest (laminar coat, coat of arms), ankles/shins (another hidden dagger, more throwing knives, poisons, etc), feet (skies, snow shoes, "sneak shoes"), hands (metal knuckles, enchanted rings, blinding dust or poison) and finally a full body slot (for slickers, robes, capes, etc)

The player could then choose to either leave a slot empty to lighten the dwarf, or fill it with whichever armour or clothing has the right tag.

Locked tags are there because of shaped armour pieces. A full metal cuirass (heavy layer, it's metal plate) is shaped for the body, and would therefor lock out the light layer. A chest plate, however, is not shaped and could be worn over a hauberk (light layer, it's a chain shirt) to provide additional protection from arrows to the heart.

This way, if presented with either a rough drawing or in an organized list would be nice, maybe something like:

...
HEAD
1:cloth cap
2:-empty-
3:steel helm
4:-empty-

BODY
1:Spider Silk Shirt
2:Steel Hauberk
3:Steel Plate
4:Dwarf Coat of Arms
...

Give me your thoughts.

[Capntastic]

'Slots' don't exist like that in real life.   What if I want my dwarves or adventurer to wear a bunch'a layers of burlap shirts, rather than armor?

[dwarf_sadist]

Because dwarf fortress is not real life. The inventory screen is a disorganized mess that could do with some straightening up. Besides, it's not "realistic" to wear plate, chain, 4 shirts, 8 robes, 4 caps, 1 helm, pants, 1 greave, 3 chain skirts, 1 sock, 1 boot, 1 sock, 1 boot, glove, glove, another shirt, etc.

[dwarf_sadist]

Actually, in retrospect, it would be useful to put on multiple layers of shirts in cold weather. Still, it would be nice to have it all organized, shirts with shirts, armour with armour.

[Capntastic]

Because dwarf fortress is not real life. The inventory screen is a disorganized mess that could do with some straightening up. Besides, it's not "realistic" to wear plate, chain, 4 shirts, 8 robes, 4 caps, 1 helm, pants, 1 greave, 3 chain skirts, 1 sock, 1 boot, 1 sock, 1 boot, glove, glove, another shirt, etc.

Dwarf Fortress isn't real life, obviously, but it seeks to mimic it in certain ways, giving it more realism than a 'armor slot' system.  There are always ways to clean up the inventory system without implementing that sort of system.

[dwarf_sadist]

There are always ways to clean up the inventory system without implementing that sort of system.

Go on........

If you've ever programmed, you know that sometimes some realism must be sacrificed in order to balance, organized, simplify and even just tidy up the gameplay mechanics. Toady will have to clean up the interface eventually...

[Jacos]

How about you can wear things in outer layers which would fit in inner layers. For example, wear shirt in light/heavy layer, wear chainmail in heavy layer!

[Capntastic]

Having a slot system simply doesn't work when you have cloaks that cover your back and not your front, scarves that are tied around your neck underneath your helmet but hangs down on top of your armor, boots that go up to your ankles above chainmail pants, and a chainmail shirt that hangs down to your knees, etc.  Again, as I said, there are better ways to handle it- I'm simply not equipped to come up with anything too succinct and effective at this time.  Toady's mentioned different 'depths' of inventory views, etc.  Whatever changes occur will be multiple tweaks that form the gestalt of the new interface.

But you've failed to respond to my core point, instead asserting that "i'd understand if i knew how to program":  If the UI is the issue, why massacre the gameplay behind it?  Especially given that ridiculously complex systems and slapped-on stand-in UIs are what DF basically trades on?

[dwarf_sadist]

Having a slot system simply doesn't work when you have cloaks that cover your back and not your front, scarves that are tied around your neck underneath your helmet but hangs down on top of your armor, boots that go up to your ankles above chainmail pants, and a chainmail shirt that hangs down to your knees, etc.  Again, as I said, there are better ways to handle it- I'm simply not equipped to come up with anything too succinct and effective at this time.  Toady's mentioned different 'depths' of inventory views, etc.  Whatever changes occur will be multiple tweaks that form the gestalt of the new interface.

But you've failed to respond to my core point, instead asserting that "i'd understand if i knew how to program":  If the UI is the issue, why massacre the gameplay behind it?  Especially given that ridiculously complex systems and slapped-on stand-in UIs are what DF basically trades on?

1. None of those armour distinctions are in the game anyways
2. The current upstep and downstep would cover shirt mail going down to the knees. A cloak that covers only the back would have tokens similar to upstep/downstep, defining where it would/would not protect
3. No gameplay would be massacred, beside the gamy tactic of have all your soldiers wear multiple layers of steel or adamantine armour to become invincible
4. "Ridiculously complex" and "slapped-on, stand-in UI"... Not exactly a point of pride.

By the way Jacos, that isn't such a bad idea.

[Capntastic]

Having a slot system simply doesn't work when you have cloaks that cover your back and not your front, scarves that are tied around your neck underneath your helmet but hangs down on top of your armor, boots that go up to your ankles above chainmail pants, and a chainmail shirt that hangs down to your knees, etc.  Again, as I said, there are better ways to handle it- I'm simply not equipped to come up with anything too succinct and effective at this time.  Toady's mentioned different 'depths' of inventory views, etc.  Whatever changes occur will be multiple tweaks that form the gestalt of the new interface.

But you've failed to respond to my core point, instead asserting that "i'd understand if i knew how to program":  If the UI is the issue, why massacre the gameplay behind it?  Especially given that ridiculously complex systems and slapped-on stand-in UIs are what DF basically trades on?

1. None of those armour distinctions are in the game anyways
2. The current upstep and downstep would cover shirt mail going down to the knees. A cloak that covers only the back would have tokens similar to upstep/downstep, defining where it would/would not protect
3. No gameplay would be massacred, beside the gamy tactic of have all your soldiers wear multiple layers of steel or adamantine armour to become invincible
4. "Ridiculously complex" and "slapped-on, stand-in UI"... Not exactly a point of pride.

By the way Jacos, that isn't such a bad idea.

1: Yes, they are.  Even the more ornate example, the scarf, are planned and being worked on.
2: That's cool.
3:  Or wanting to wear multiple shirts when it's freezing in Adventure Mode, or wearing a hat on top of your helmet to keep it from rusting, etc.  The procedural cultures will introduce a lot of 'bizarre' styles of dress, and I don't see why it should be constrained to what we see as typical.
4:  Yeah I know, but it's still true.  Look at the mineral system, the management system, the military system, etc.  They're all complex things that need specific tools to be conveyed managed properly.  But because they are all changing, as the entire game is still in alpha, Toady just doesn't want to take the time to solidify anything yet.  He's simply using simple menus that sort of work, for now.  I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm simply pointing out that it is, indeed, the way things are at this stage.

[dwarf_sadist]

Having a slot system simply doesn't work when you have cloaks that cover your back and not your front, scarves that are tied around your neck underneath your helmet but hangs down on top of your armor, boots that go up to your ankles above chainmail pants, and a chainmail shirt that hangs down to your knees, etc.  Again, as I said, there are better ways to handle it- I'm simply not equipped to come up with anything too succinct and effective at this time.  Toady's mentioned different 'depths' of inventory views, etc.  Whatever changes occur will be multiple tweaks that form the gestalt of the new interface.

But you've failed to respond to my core point, instead asserting that "i'd understand if i knew how to program":  If the UI is the issue, why massacre the gameplay behind it?  Especially given that ridiculously complex systems and slapped-on stand-in UIs are what DF basically trades on?

1. None of those armour distinctions are in the game anyways
2. The current upstep and downstep would cover shirt mail going down to the knees. A cloak that covers only the back would have tokens similar to upstep/downstep, defining where it would/would not protect
3. No gameplay would be massacred, beside the gamy tactic of have all your soldiers wear multiple layers of steel or adamantine armour to become invincible
4. "Ridiculously complex" and "slapped-on, stand-in UI"... Not exactly a point of pride.

By the way Jacos, that isn't such a bad idea.

1: Yes, they are.  Even the more ornate example, the scarf, are planned and being worked on.
2: That's cool.
3:  Or wanting to wear multiple shirts when it's freezing in Adventure Mode, or wearing a hat on top of your helmet to keep it from rusting, etc.  The procedural cultures will introduce a lot of 'bizarre' styles of dress, and I don't see why it should be constrained to what we see as typical.
4:  Yeah I know, but it's still true.  Look at the mineral system, the management system, the military system, etc.  They're all complex things that need specific tools to be conveyed managed properly.  But because they are all changing, as the entire game is still in alpha, Toady just doesn't want to take the time to solidify anything yet.  He's simply using simple menus that sort of work, for now.  I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm simply pointing out that it is, indeed, the way things are at this stage.

1. That's most likely a good thing.
2. Good to hear
3. Jonas's idea would allow multiple shirts to be worn. And yes, there would be some interesting procedural clothings made. Still, clothing will be worn in usual places (neck, head, back, torso, etc), no matter what culture your from.
4. Hope it gets fixed.

Another thing, to avoid all the layered armour, have it so that armour thats layered one on top of the other will wear out faster.

[FallingWhale]

There is a limit to how much any dwarf will have on any one body part.
When cold is a real threat covering your dwarfs in stuff will be a need.

[Capntastic]

And common sense tweaks like "armor having sensible weight so that you don't really want to put on a ton of it" make more sense for the game than solutions that limit you in more abstract fashions.

[Jeoshua]

Capntastic, fundamentally the game is already using a slot system.  Theres just an unlimited amount of objects you can put some of the slots, but not others.  That really should be fixed in some way.  Cause it might be possible to layer up on clothes... but I dare you to wear 3 chain mail shirts at once.  They wouldn't even be able to fit on you since they wouldn't have any elasticity to stretch them out.

A simple way of making the armor more logical would be to make a stress test when putting the armor/clothing piece on, taking into account it's elasticity.  If it won't stretch out enough to fit over like 200%, then it won't go on.  The game could even tell you that you tried to put on that second layer of Plate Mail, but it won't fit.  Whereas shirts, scarves, and skirts could probably be layered until you fell over from the added weight.

[dwarf_sadist]

A weight system would be nice. Sort of a combat effectiveness modifier depending on how heavy you are. The main problem with wearing multiple layers of clothing and armour is wear. If you wear two socks on each foot, the heel wears out faster than just wearing one sock. It's the same reason you don't double wrap condoms, they break faster.

Elasticity isn't a problem in this game, as all dwarven armour is a one size fits all deal with a dwarfs. Same with goblin armour, they don't fit dwarfs but they fit all goblins perfectly, doesn't matter if that goblin is anorexic or morbidly obese.

And you seem to be forgetting that armour in this game is a cookie cutter style armour, with each armour being predetermined in the raws. The armour the game bases itself off of is armour that is meant to be worn in 1 layer, two at most. One hauberk could weight up to 50kg, good luck wearing more than one as it's designed for the user to only wear one. Sure, you could wear a hauberk and a chest plate for a little extra protection but you would overheat and not be able to move very far very fast.