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[Aqizzar]

Yo.  Long story short, I'm looking for a competent, modern computer, with a total cost of less than $1000, preferably lower.  I can swap out parts and such, but building and setting up a computer from scratch is beyond my capabilities.  That in mind, I've settled on a plan to buy a pre-built tower with good RAM and processor (roughly $400-500), and buy a good graphics card to swap out for whatever cheap surplus card the tower comes with ($200-400).  I have just enough experience with this to know what brands to seek and avoid, i.e. Nvidia is usually solid, ATI's are pieces of shit, Compaqs are hard to modify, and never ever buy an eMachine.

My biggest problem is just deciphering the product descriptions to know what parts can be moved around.  Most of the reasonably priced pre-builds I've looked at have "integrated" graphics or words that sound like "integrated", which I know from experience is supposed to mean "it's part of the motherboard, can't swap it bro".  But the few that don't say "integrated", it's hard to figure out what kind of slot and pins they have, because I know graphics cards are not one-size-fits all.

My second biggest problem is that I don't want Windows 7, which is basically impossible now.  I know at some point, I'll have to suck it up and adapt like I did when XP came along, but it'd be nice if I could install an older OS, in a partition or otherwise.  I'll figure that out when it comes around though.

So yeah, I know there's a lot of chipheads around here.  Any tips for someone looking for a painless, reasonably competent gaming computer solution?  Especially in terms of aftermarket adaptability.

[Felius]

Some motherboards with integrated graphic cards can in fact accept actual graphic cards too. Check if they have the correct slot, and you should be good.

About OS, you can always format the pc and install whatever you wish on it. In fact, I actually recommend it if you have the install cd for the OS you wish (or want a free OS). Call it paranoia, but in general, I prefer not to trust others with installing stuff in my pc if I can possibly avoid. If you don't do it, and it comes pre built, most likely all space will be already partitioned, which, unless I'm wrong, makes it much harder to install another OS on it. If it comes with more than one partition you might be able to format one of them and install it there. 

On yet another note, it's really easy to build your pc from parts. Get a chassis, screw the motherboard on it (both have pre drilled holes for it, of course, just match the patterns/size). If you can swap parts the rest is the same, just plug in the parts. The only part that's a little annoying is the processor, specially if you get one with tendency to heating too much (specially if you live in a very hot area), where people in forums generally recommend you get a better fan, and in particular a better thermal paste. Still, as you seem to be building on budget, it's very unlikely to be an issue, so just get a processor that comes boxed with a fan (and generally also with the thermal paste already on the fan).

And a final note, about windows seven, I've not got it yet (although will be probably getting it later this year), but I've heard pretty nice things about it, specially compared to vista.

[Simmura McCrea]

Graphics cards need PCI-E slots, IIRC. Most motherboards these days come with an integrated graphics card that's a PoS, but works fine if you're not planning on gaming. If there's a proper graphics card installed, then it'll ignore the integrated chip. If you're confused about a part's actual stats, google it and see if you can find some.

[lordnincompoop]

Are you sure you can't built it yourself?

This is just my opinion here, but me I'm waiting for Ivy Bridge, which is Intel's new iteration of the architecture, to come out first so I know they've polished it well. There's been a number of problems with Sandy Bridge, including their manufacturing process, which hurt a lot of the retail chips.

That in mind, I've settled on a plan to buy a pre-built tower with good RAM and processor (roughly $400-500), and buy a good graphics card to swap out for whatever cheap surplus card the tower comes with ($200-400).

Go for the Intel CPUs. The AMDs can't compete in terms of performance right now.

For RAM, you'll want higher clocks and lower timings (which are sets of four numbers, often in the tech specs). Timings lower delays, and it's rather straightforward what the clocks shows.

My biggest problem is just deciphering the product descriptions to know what parts can be moved around.  Most of the reasonably priced pre-builds I've looked at have "integrated" graphics or words that sound like "integrated", which I know from experience is supposed to mean "it's part of the motherboard, can't swap it bro".  But the few that don't say "integrated", it's hard to figure out what kind of slot and pins they have, because I know graphics cards are not one-size-fits all.

Anything running Sandy Bridge (four digit numbers, no letters or Ks on the end) and the Core i's (easy to spot) use DDR3 memory, which is clearly named anyways.

Never go for an integrated card if you want a gaming machine. The card slots all use PCI-E, so no worries there (unless it's legacy). The biggest problem will be size, I think, but you can just measure the case for an upgrade. Check what motherboard you're getting too, as I think the quality of those will matter.

So yeah, I know there's a lot of chipheads around here.  Any tips for someone looking for a painless, reasonably competent gaming computer solution?  Especially in terms of aftermarket adaptability.

Never buy a slim or small form factor computer if you want this. You can always buy an aftermarket cooler and overclock if you want to; it's much easier than people think.

My second biggest problem is that I don't want Windows 7, which is basically impossible now.  I know at some point, I'll have to suck it up and adapt like I did when XP came along, but it'd be nice if I could install an older OS, in a partition or otherwise.  I'll figure that out when it comes around though.

As soon as you get it, reformat and reinstall. Pretty simple.

Nvidia is usually solid, ATI's are pieces of shit

I disagree very strongly. They are both brands with their own problems, and it depends on what you're looking for. IIRC when the 5xxx series were out, NVIDIA could barely compete. I don't have that tight of a check on the market right now, but the HD6850s are very good value for money, and NVIDIA's 460, though a little older now, also still runs well.

PPE: bluh ninjas

[Rose]

Windows 7 is great, a lot more stable than vista, and even a bit better than XP in that respect. it's particularly good with drivers.

regarding the comp itself, as many have said, integrated graphics generally allows for adding another card on top of it.

[white_darkness]

Building it yourself isn't that hard actually, and in many cases those "pre-fabs" from an OEM manufacturer are horrifically limited in a variety of ways, though every now and then one will cook up an amazing motherboard for options.

Nincompoop raises several good points.  Wait for Intel's next phase of architecture, since the Sandy Bridge has definitely had it's rocky points.

I'm completely with him on smaller computers.  You buy small to look pretty, if you want serious power, you get something with some space.

I'm an Nvidia lover myself, but if ATI has the better card, I'll take it.  No one manufacturer is that good.  Heck the reason AMD chips are slower than Intel's right now may be due to certain actions on Intel's part where it unfairly leveraged it's market share against competition (resulting in one of the largest fines issued by the European Union).

Swing on over to NewEgg.com or somewhere and start browsing around components and then try to match things up.  Ask questions here, I'm sure various of us will happily provide info, disagree with each other, and get into an argument, and then get completely ignored by other people.  It's tradition...

[Starver]

Regarding all graphics cards being PCI-E, indeed these days you wouldn't get much of a contemporary machine with other types (regular PCI relegated to non-graphics, VESA or ISA are definitely the way of the dodo, though AGP is still hanging on), but bear in mind that PCI-E cards/motherboards have an 'x'-factor (x1, x2, x4, etc), and the effective value will be the lower of the two, so splashing out on an x32 motherboard (apart from being messy, probably unhygenic and not something you'd want to do in polite company) but a low-end graphics card would be a waste, as would vice-versa.


The one thing I hate about main-brand (and even some minor-brand) pre-built machines, though, is that they often come with a load of self-advertising TSRs like "HP Driver Support", "Compaq You Want News, We'll Give You News" or "Dell We Want To Know What You Do".  To increasingly paraphrase.  Windows itself is bad enough (I'll not comment about Windows 7, BTW, although I'm still not convinced by it and its clock-panel/weather/whatever stuff).  Of course, you can turn off/not turn on a lot of it, but starting from a self-build using an OS of choice[1] is maybe the best way.  If nothing else, you can often re-do it at will to tidy up (or not clutter up with) various software components.  Getting no installation media but a recovery partition that puts the machine back into the same spammy condition as it was when it first arrived isn't always what you want.

Also, just like you tended to get XP Home, back in the day, these days you get Windows 7 'Premium' (a most deceptive name).  And I bet you still get the equivalent of (if not in actuality!) the pre-installed "Microsoft Works Suite" which has caused more inter-person document incompatibility issues than anything else I know.  Yes, it comes 'free' with the machine, and so does such as the 30-day Trial edition of Microsoft Office, and full Norton/McAfee/TrendMicro/BullGuard AV packages which then expire after 12 months, get ignored, stop getting updated and then inevitably end up letting through something.  I speak from the POV of someone who often has to deal with the fallout of the latter, so obviously those instances are self-selecting themselves for my attention (those that don't get such problems don't tend to come in my directions).    Erm... can you tell that this kind of thing riles me?


Anyway, my tuppence-worth.  FWIW.


[1] I have a so-far-not-installed XP OEM licence at hand which I may put onto my next machine, given the one it was originally bought for (and with one of its components) ended up being a Fedora machine instead.  Assuming that there's no forward-incompatibility with the corporeal electronic form it eventually is wanted to be put upon, although I'm sure I could also get it running as a virtual machine if necessary.

[Aqizzar]

I'm certainly aware of the limitations of smaller cases, that's pretty obvious.  My hang-ups over "integrated" graphics is that both of the computers I've had with such "graphics" (neither of which I picked out mind you) had motherboards lacking any PCI-E slot to put a new card in.  So I assume anything with integrated graphics will be the same, because I don't want to risk buying something I can't tinker with.

I'm not of a mind to assemble a PC from parts, and I'm not eager to move on that.  For one thing, the last time I tried, that finicky processor-mounting business fucked me over, and I don't know enough about parts.  I don't feel like cross referencing a ton of different pin-types and motherboards and shit.  And ultimately, a good pre-build from Newegg (aside from the graphics that is), isn't going to be much more expensive than its individual parts anyway.  I fully support division-of-labor economies, because I don't feel like saving 10% by doing all the hard shit myself.  And I don't want to install an OS from scratch.

My worry about Windows 7 is that I'd rather keep using XP, but I know hardware support is probably outmoding older OSs all the time.  I have a feeling I'll have to keep 7 regardless.

Nincompoop raises several good points.  Wait for Intel's next phase of architecture, since the Sandy Bridge has definitely had it's rocky points.

That's simply not an option, because the computer I'm using right now is falling apart by the day.  I need to get something new before it totally gives up the ghost.

[lordnincompoop]

Hmm. Arrite.

If you can overclock, you might as well go for the "special K"s they offer.

[nenjin]

My worry about Windows 7 is that I'd rather keep using XP, but I know hardware support is probably outmoding older OSs all the time.  I have a feeling I'll have to keep 7 regardless.

I didn't want to upgrade either, but now that I have, I'm very glad. The only rocky points in Win 7 is using older games and programs, or using some indie stuff still written in XP. There are a few new problems and "WTH was that" issues you have to adjust to.

As for pre-built....there is NO substitute for knowledge about what's in your PC. You seem pretty set on doing it the easiest and least painful way, and you've got time issues....but really, you should get over the "worry" about assembling a computer and just do it until it works. Installing processors and coolers is fucking scary for amateurs....until you actually do it. Then you realize you're just (rightfully) being paranoid with a several hundred dollar piece of hardware. The mental terror of doing your first build is actually far greater than the risk of doing it wrong.

Because you're just going to be in the same place 4 years from now when the PC you're buying is falling apart. Not knowing how to replace your HD, upgrade your video card, your memory and all that junk....means you're stuck in a perpetual cycle of "something's wrong! Time for new PC!"

It's really liberating to be able to say "I need a new video card, and I'm going to buy on and put it in" and extend the life of a PC you built 5 years ago another 4.

[Aqizzar]

I'm totally cool with no overclocking.  No fanciness required, I just want it for running nearly-modern games on reasonable settings, not playing Crysis 3.

Anyway, I clearly need to shop around some more.  I can deal with pre-installed bullshit, I've taken care of that before.  I just wanted to make sure I wouldn't be up a creek with graphics card compatibility.

I didn't want to upgrade either, but now that I have, I'm very glad. The only rocky points in Win 7 is using older games and programs, or using some indie stuff still written in XP. There are a few new problems and "WTH was that" issues you have to adjust to.

Yeah, I don't really have a huge problem with moving on to 7, since it seems a lot less of an artistic pain in the ass than Vista was.  I'd just like to be able to play games that can't run on modern OSs again, but that's what partitions are for I suppose.  I'll worry about it another time.

but really, you should get over the "worry" about assembling a computer and just do it until it works.  Because you're just going to be in the same place 4 years from now when the PC you're buying is falling apart. Not knowing how to replace your HD, upgrade your video card, your memory and all that junk....means you're stuck in a perpetual cycle of "something's wrong! Time for new PC!"

It's really liberating to be able to say "I need a new video card, and I'm going to buy on and put it in" and extend the life of a PC you built 5 years ago another 4.

This whole thread is predicated on my confidence in already being able to perform any part swaps and assemblies except processors.  I don't have a problem with buying a new computer every four years, because you have to anyway, because the industry is built on planned-obsolescence.  It seems like the "industry standard" motherboard and processor pin-types, i.e. the only ones in production, change every six months, because any time I've upgraded before, I have to navigate a labyrinth of "legacy" parts just barely out of production that are compatible with whatever I'm not replacing.  Four years from now, I'll be getting a brand new computer, just like I assembled one from all-new parts three years ago, and bought a new tower three years before that, and before that, and so on.  That's an inescapable fact of computers.  And thanks for calling me a pussy luddite by the way, but I know you didn't mean anything harsh by it.

[nenjin]

And thanks for calling me a pussy luddite by the way, but I know you didn't mean anything harsh by it.

Aw, I'm not attacking your cred or your intelligence. I didn't want to build my first one 8 years ago either. It was nerve wracking, but I did it, and taking control of my primary hobby was pretty rewarding. I can't imagine giving up that kind of control to someone else anymore.

As for planned obsolescence, that's all about where you need to be on the technology curve personally and....having control over your build so you can push back obsolescence as far as possible. I put myself on the "medium settings" part of the gaming tech curve...which means I ran a mobo for a single core P4 until like 2008, for gaming, because I pushed my memory and video card as far as the board could handle to compensate.

The rage I felt with my last pre-built when I needed to upgrade to video card that support higher pixel shaders...and found out the mobo was custom built for the machine I was using, and wouldn't accept most standard market cards, was enormous. 

[Neonivek]

From what I seen prebuilt computers for the most part try to obtain low price points by not featuring something that would normally be overlooked or that could be overlooked. Normally cheaping out in one area.

the computer I have now was prebuilt and it was actually amazing... except it lacked a graphics card and a fan that could handle a graphics card.

[Zrk2]

...worried about running older games on windows 7...

I've never had any problem with AoE3 on win7, if you get warning use the 'run anyway' option, I do, and I've never had any problems with it.

*I also can run Star Wars: Empire at War and Medieval II: Total War with out problems too.*

[nenjin]

I've had quite a few issues with older programs on Windows 7.

-DosBox likes to start choking when you've switched between full screen and such a bunch, or let it sit for long periods of time. Might have something to do with Win 7 Visual styles. Since I used DosBox for a ton of retro gaming...yeah.

-Some emulator and rom combinations have behaved differently between XP and Win 7. Games that never crashed or hung in an emulator on XP now do so occasionally in Win 7.

Just going on how two games behave on the two different operating system, things have been different. Not necessarily broken...but different. The whole 64/32 bit switching thing, and where you need to worry about it, is something you have to get used to.