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Author Topic: Firefox 4 geek gasm  (Read 9505 times)

Darvi

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Re: Firefox 4 geek gasm
« Reply #135 on: May 30, 2011, 01:49:55 pm »

I have the problem that the first tab closes too easily.

It's my bay12 tab you see... all my posts that got eaten... xP
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Aklyon

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Re: Firefox 4 geek gasm
« Reply #136 on: May 30, 2011, 01:52:06 pm »

I've had no problems with it.
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Alexhans

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Re: Firefox 4 geek gasm
« Reply #137 on: May 31, 2011, 08:53:57 am »

No, it's mainly for emphasis, because describing any browser as worse than IE6 is a massive insult, at least from the attitude associated with IE6 (mainly hatred, when the reality is that it is merely severely outdated, and windows 98 compared to XP or 7 is very similar to IE6 compared to anything in the past 2 years or so).

But, if Firefox drops the address bar (or whatever they call it), it will be worse than IE6 in my opinion, and nobody wants that to happen, right? (And, since even telnet is better than IE6, these days...)
Don't worry, qwerty.  Even if you killed babies, I'd still like you.  In fact, killing babies wouldn't be as bad as defending the use of IE6... :P

It's weird that you're just starting to think it's outdated.  Most web services (including known search engines and mail providers) do NOT support IE6. 

I don't know if you have worked on web development for someone else or testing your code in all browsers and having it work right off the bat except, of course, IE (all versions but some are worse than others) makes you start questioning if this was all a practical joke by Microsoft. 

As to the end user.  Customization is a great feature in any tool and IE has never been very customizable to begin with.  You do NOT know what happens and can't easily install/uninstall.

a bit more on topic:  I'm a happy FF4 user.  I don't limit myself to it but it's my main browser.

Bookmark browsing is cool but I want it to improve so as to work similarly to any folder explorer.

Useful Addons:
Read It Later
WebMail Notifier
Xmarks (If you don't go the Firefox Sync way): it has the bonus of having plugins for other browsers as well and a very cool auto tag feature for new bookmarks.
Flashgot (awesomeness)
Lazarus (Form Recovery; never lose text after a refresh again)
fireFTP (really cool, specially if you can't use a standalone FTP client like FileZilla because the ports are being blocked)
foxyProxy (determine proxy based on website (regex if you want))
And there's a ton more for web dev (firebug, user Agent Switcher, Wappalyzer, etc, etc)
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 09:01:28 am by Alexhans »
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Rose

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Re: Firefox 4 geek gasm
« Reply #138 on: May 31, 2011, 08:56:39 am »

so in the firefox about box, you can chose if you only want release updates, also beta, or also alpha updates.

but once you go alpha, you can't switch back till there's a new release or beta update.
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Jay

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Re: Firefox 4 geek gasm
« Reply #139 on: May 31, 2011, 11:34:21 am »

fireFTP (really cool, specially if you can't use a standalone FTP client like FileZilla because the ports are being blocked)
Erm.
As far as I know, FireFTP is no different from an actual FTP client, and wouldn't make a difference in that situation.

Now, if you can't run a standalone FTP client because software is blocked on the PC you're using, there you go.
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Alexhans

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Re: Firefox 4 geek gasm
« Reply #140 on: May 31, 2011, 09:41:27 pm »

Let's see.  As far as I know, Firefox communicates through port 80 (HTTP).  FTP uses port 21.

If your company decides to block certain ports at firewall level you're pretty much screwed but might have a few choices (eg: remote web based FTP, HTTP upload, SSH based transfer).

In the case of FireFTP, Firefox is the one doing the uploading so it doesn't use port 21. 

It's pretty similar to being able to use IRC on a web based service (webchat or mibbit) and being unable to use any other standalone client if the appropriate ports are blocked (between 6660-6669 or so)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_TCP_and_UDP_port_numbers

Spoiler: "Having said that" (click to show/hide)
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Firefox 4 geek gasm
« Reply #141 on: June 01, 2011, 10:50:35 am »

My one annoyance with Firefox 4? THEY HAVEN'T FIXED THE MEMORY LEAK THAT'S BEEN IN SINCE 1.0!
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Jay

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Re: Firefox 4 geek gasm
« Reply #142 on: June 01, 2011, 01:02:45 pm »

Let's see.  As far as I know, Firefox communicates through port 80 (HTTP).  FTP uses port 21.
Uh, yeah?  You're not locked to one connection or one port per program, you know.
ChatZilla, also a Firefox extension, uses IRC protocol standard ports, usually 6666 or 6667.
Trying to route FTP through port 80 would be...  less than ideal

EDIT: The usual problem with not being able to use standalone software is the inability to install said standalone software.
Without a proxy, none of these mentioned things would work if their respective ports were blocked.
And no, Firefox does not act as a proxy for its extensions.
Outbound connections from FireFTP are on 21, ChatZilla on its relevant ports, etc.  I just tested it.
EDITEDIT: If you want to get really technical about it, none of the outbound HTTP/FTP connections are on local ports 21 OR 80.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 01:15:44 pm by Jay »
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qwertyuiopas

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Re: Firefox 4 geek gasm
« Reply #143 on: June 01, 2011, 01:06:47 pm »

I have heard that perfection is achieved when there is nothing left to take away. However, in a UI, you want the user to be able to find what they need in only a few clicks, without being annoyingly cluttered, so it would be better phrased as in UI design, perfection is achieved when there are no annoyances left to take away. Since no two users will find the exact same setup annoying in the same ways (much less two hundred million users), a degree of customization is required for every feature added.

Now, by that guideline, IE6 only has three major annoyances:
 - Broken design means that most pages don't display correctly
 - There aren't many useful features by default
 - Web designers hate making sites for it (This is artificial, though, as by now they should have learned to simply ignore IE6, and let their sited break for it, naturally)

A fourth is added when a designer adds a popup telling you to upgrade, but these are seen as an annoyance of the website, not the browser. DO NOT USE, IT ONLY DRIVES USERS AWAY FROM YOUR SITE, NOT THE BROWSER. (hopefully they have gotten over it)

The thing that IE6 did right was to limit the features it added, so that there was very little UI clutter (and at the time, extra features weren't common in any other browsers, I would assume)


Now, IE7/8/9 have many more features all stuck onto the UI with very little you can do to remove the annoying parts (Tab groups: Either disabled, or coloured with an annoying palette. Being able to change the colour set would have been fine, but it's either on or off, making a useful feature into a mere annoyance), so, where IE6's annoyances are all caused by it's outdatedness, later IE browsers have annoyances from day 1.

Firefox has annoyances, but they can all be customized away, with a well-placed right click, or the UI customization menu option, or the right add-on. Now, if they make the "only tabs and one big button" UI the default, people will be annoyed until they get the old, cluttered, customized-to-perfection UI back, and if they remove the old UI entirely, then they will be as bad as IE7+, creating annoyances because *they* think they know better than the users.

As for IE6, when I used it it was because I accepted that, as an outdated browser, sites may break and if I didn't like that, I could always upgrade. I just decided that the UI was very nice and clean compared to IE7/8 at school (and the lack of tabs was a very useful defense against the tvtropes effect), since it had exactly what I needed, no more, no less, and nothing was obtrusive or annoying. Of course, after months of Firefox, I could never go back without finding the lack of a few features annoying.


So, a few tips for UI design:
If a user might not need it, don't clutter up their interface with it unnessecarily (or at least, in the case of a menu bar, have an easily accessible customization feature. Something that the new ribbon fad in microsoft products is lacking, aside from the ability to undock toolbars and move them to other edges of your screen), however, if a user might need it, keep it only a few clicks away. IE7+, from memory, would pop up a rather large icon when text was selected. I think it had the functions like "search for this" and stuff. Bad design, it's just clutter. Firefox, however, puts that stuff in the right-click menu, where you only see it if you are already going to do something fancy with the selection, so it doesn't obscure the page unnessecarily. IE6 just didn't do it at all, which, on my personal usability scale, fit somewhere in the middle, since copy-new window-google just took a bit more effort, and only appeared when specifically needed.

There, a demi-rant on what I think about UI design, and why IE7+ < IE6 < Firefox in my opinion, and how that might change if firefox discards the current UI.
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Alexhans

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Re: Firefox 4 geek gasm
« Reply #144 on: June 01, 2011, 01:09:23 pm »

My one annoyance with Firefox 4? THEY HAVEN'T FIXED THE MEMORY LEAK THAT'S BEEN IN SINCE 1.0!
They probably grew attached to it, I mean, all these years together, how could you just abandon it like a cold blooded bastard?  :P

On a serious note, your post is amazingly vague.  If you have, indeed, a memory leak that's caused by the browser, how do you know it's the same? what if it's a plugin? what if it's an addon?

Interesting tips:
http://cybernetnews.com/this-may-help-your-firefox-memory-leak/  (trim_on_minimize)
http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/High%20memory%20usage

If it's a real bug, then, hopefully, you'll make the effort to be part of the solution and submit it to mozilla.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Firefox 4 geek gasm
« Reply #145 on: June 01, 2011, 01:17:44 pm »

1. I only have 1 add-on. Adblock.

2. This is a well, well documented bug. Last I checked, there were more than 10,000 reports. Firefox doesn't unload the memory it allocates for images, but doesn't use it either. You can have a firefox session using 1+ gb of RAM, then restart your browser, and have 76 mb used with the exact same tabs open.
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Alexhans

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Re: Firefox 4 geek gasm
« Reply #146 on: June 01, 2011, 01:47:31 pm »

Quote
I have heard that perfection is achieved when there is nothing left to take away.
There's no such thing as perfection.  There's always something that can be changed to suit one's need.  But, considering that software is not made for just one user, wide customization features are closer to this "satisfactory performance for the largest number of users" or perfection's search.
Quote
However, in a UI, you want the user to be able to find what they need in only a few clicks, without being annoyingly cluttered, so it would be better phrased as in UI design
But what about habits vs more efficient design?  Will the user beat the learning curve of a new interface feature in order to be more efficient or will he run away, safely into the arms of the known?

You remind me of Status Quo Guy.  He finds something he likes and works for him and decides to stick with it against all odds.  That might make it a great system for STG but it's not a good system for everyone else.  It doesn't address a number of faults that STG's willing to overlook because he's used to it and it suits him.

And I notice we haven't even talked about security features.  Nor compatibility issues with the OS.  If you plan on moving ahead, you'll find it practically impossible to have that particular version considering it's really hard to separate IE from the system.

You can't extend dated software.

Let's not talk about Javascript either.

Quote
- There aren't many useful features by default
I really don't know how many extendable features are there, anyway.

A fourth is added when a designer adds a popup telling you to upgrade, but these are seen as an annoyance of the website, not the browser. DO NOT USE, IT ONLY DRIVES USERS AWAY FROM YOUR SITE, NOT THE BROWSER. (hopefully they have gotten over it)
[CITATION NEEDED]
Or I'll just use hearsay to prove otherwise.  People find the same IPs coming back with a different browser in many cases. 

Quote
The thing that IE6 did right was to limit the features it added, so that there was very little UI clutter (and at the time, extra features weren't common in any other browsers, I would assume)
Again, sounding like Status Quo Guy, you can customize a new browser to suit your needs.  Firefox is extremely customizable in that sense.  You can make it look like any other if you so wish to but it's not the only one.  There's enough config options to make most people happy.  Yes, you might have to research a bit but you're the one asking for a very specific solution. 

About IE7,8,9... It's still IE.  Still requires special consideration.  I don't really know why you'd use it over any other browser, specially when IE's UI is clearly imitating the rest and still has many of the same core problems.

The big problem of UI design is that you have to both target Power Users and varying degrees of casual users.  How do you appeal to all of them?
They're trying to eliminate clutter, as you say.  Even the url bar is going away.  And it's very likely that all big browsers are doing extensive GUI design research, considering it's a crucial issue for virtually all users. Still, IE is bound to follow it's own tradition in many cases.

Quote
There, a demi-rant on what I think about UI design, and why IE7+ < IE6 < Firefox in my opinion, and how that might change if firefox discards the current UI.
Again, YOU can discard it.  What's best suited for you might not be best for the majority. 

1. I only have 1 add-on. Adblock.

2. This is a well, well documented bug. Last I checked, there were more than 10,000 reports. Firefox doesn't unload the memory it allocates for images, but doesn't use it either. You can have a firefox session using 1+ gb of RAM, then restart your browser, and have 76 mb used with the exact same tabs open.
Thanks.  This is way more informative.  Maybe you could try the trim_on_minimize feature so it might perform similarly to a restart.  It will be a question of balancing speed with those ram usage modifications.


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Virex

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Re: Firefox 4 geek gasm
« Reply #147 on: June 01, 2011, 02:31:51 pm »

I have heard that perfection is achieved when there is nothing left to take away. However, in a UI, you want the user to be able to find what they need in only a few clicks, without being annoyingly cluttered, so it would be better phrased as in UI design, perfection is achieved when there are no annoyances left to take away. Since no two users will find the exact same setup annoying in the same ways (much less two hundred million users), a degree of customization is required for every feature added.

Now, by that guideline, IE6 only has three major annoyances:
 - Broken design means that most pages don't display correctly
 - There aren't many useful features by default
 - Web designers hate making sites for it (This is artificial, though, as by now they should have learned to simply ignore IE6, and let their sited break for it, naturally)

A fourth is added when a designer adds a popup telling you to upgrade, but these are seen as an annoyance of the website, not the browser. DO NOT USE, IT ONLY DRIVES USERS AWAY FROM YOUR SITE, NOT THE BROWSER. (hopefully they have gotten over it)

The thing that IE6 did right was to limit the features it added, so that there was very little UI clutter (and at the time, extra features weren't common in any other browsers, I would assume)


Now, IE7/8/9 have many more features all stuck onto the UI with very little you can do to remove the annoying parts (Tab groups: Either disabled, or coloured with an annoying palette. Being able to change the colour set would have been fine, but it's either on or off, making a useful feature into a mere annoyance), so, where IE6's annoyances are all caused by it's outdatedness, later IE browsers have annoyances from day 1.

Firefox has annoyances, but they can all be customized away, with a well-placed right click, or the UI customization menu option, or the right add-on. Now, if they make the "only tabs and one big button" UI the default, people will be annoyed until they get the old, cluttered, customized-to-perfection UI back, and if they remove the old UI entirely, then they will be as bad as IE7+, creating annoyances because *they* think they know better than the users.

As for IE6, when I used it it was because I accepted that, as an outdated browser, sites may break and if I didn't like that, I could always upgrade. I just decided that the UI was very nice and clean compared to IE7/8 at school (and the lack of tabs was a very useful defense against the tvtropes effect), since it had exactly what I needed, no more, no less, and nothing was obtrusive or annoying. Of course, after months of Firefox, I could never go back without finding the lack of a few features annoying.


So, a few tips for UI design:
If a user might not need it, don't clutter up their interface with it unnessecarily (or at least, in the case of a menu bar, have an easily accessible customization feature. Something that the new ribbon fad in microsoft products is lacking, aside from the ability to undock toolbars and move them to other edges of your screen), however, if a user might need it, keep it only a few clicks away. IE7+, from memory, would pop up a rather large icon when text was selected. I think it had the functions like "search for this" and stuff. Bad design, it's just clutter. Firefox, however, puts that stuff in the right-click menu, where you only see it if you are already going to do something fancy with the selection, so it doesn't obscure the page unnessecarily. IE6 just didn't do it at all, which, on my personal usability scale, fit somewhere in the middle, since copy-new window-google just took a bit more effort, and only appeared when specifically needed.

There, a demi-rant on what I think about UI design, and why IE7+ < IE6 < Firefox in my opinion, and how that might change if firefox discards the current UI.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 02:39:03 pm by Virex »
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optimumtact

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Re: Firefox 4 geek gasm
« Reply #148 on: June 01, 2011, 09:49:52 pm »


having to press the button click the spoiler to reveal the interface is inefficient, therefore I would suggest the below design







.
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Alexhans

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Re: Firefox 4 geek gasm
« Reply #149 on: June 02, 2011, 02:53:09 am »

Code: [Select]
<del>press the button</del>
click the spoiler to reveal the interface is inefficient, therefore I would suggest the below design
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
.
bummer,  There I was wishing you'd have actually hidden something with some sort of script.
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