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Author Topic: Well, Here's Some Bad News  (Read 3682 times)

Nadaka

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Re: Well, Here's Some Bad News
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2011, 12:10:10 pm »

It might be PTSD or it could just be a sick bastard who wanted to kill people for fun and decided that being a soldier was a good way to do so without consequences.
Technically there is a psychological exam you have to take in order to enter the military, course your mind changes in time but they are screened first for any problems.

A moderately intelligent sociopath will ace your psychological exams without a problem more often than not.
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Ochita

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Re: Well, Here's Some Bad News
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2011, 12:11:05 pm »

It might be PTSD or it could just be a sick bastard who wanted to kill people for fun and decided that being a soldier was a good way to do so without consequences.
Technically there is a psychological exam you have to take in order to enter the military, course your mind changes in time but they are screened first for any problems.

A moderately intelligent sociopath will ace your psychological exams without a problem more often than not.
.... Dexter?
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Tellemurius

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Re: Well, Here's Some Bad News
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2011, 12:11:56 pm »

It might be PTSD or it could just be a sick bastard who wanted to kill people for fun and decided that being a soldier was a good way to do so without consequences.
Technically there is a psychological exam you have to take in order to enter the military, course your mind changes in time but they are screened first for any problems.

A moderately intelligent sociopath will ace your psychological exams without a problem more often than not.
.... Dexter?
Hey, Dexter is a good guy no matter what.

Ochita

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Re: Well, Here's Some Bad News
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2011, 12:14:09 pm »

Eh, lawful evil/chaotic good, but anyway...

Isn't there any tests once your in? I would expect a check-up every month or so..
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Tellemurius

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Re: Well, Here's Some Bad News
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2011, 12:15:46 pm »

Eh, lawful evil/chaotic good, but anyway...

Isn't there any tests once your in? I would expect a check-up every month or so..
6 months there is a checkup for PT, as for the mind, only if your CO reports it in.

Gorjo MacGrymm

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Re: Well, Here's Some Bad News
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2011, 12:27:45 pm »

As a former member of the US Army, I am ashamed by the actions of these people.  Vile human beings, everyone of them.
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Tellemurius

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Re: Well, Here's Some Bad News
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2011, 12:28:59 pm »

As a former member of the US Army, I am ashamed by the actions of these people.  Vile human beings, everyone of them.
Thats a kicker right there, how does the troops feel about this knowing their own mates did this shit?

Gorjo MacGrymm

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Re: Well, Here's Some Bad News
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2011, 12:37:17 pm »

As a former member of the US Army, I am ashamed by the actions of these people.  Vile human beings, everyone of them.
Thats a kicker right there, how does the troops feel about this knowing their own mates did this shit?
Like a kick to the balls.  They put honorable serving men and women into unnecesary danger from people who otherwise might not have been involved in trying to hurt US Troops.  Also, and more importantly, they murdered innocent civilians.  Literally the lowest of the low in human behavior, when the powerful prey unon the weak for fun.  It is only in cases like this when I think we should hand over the traitors to the justice of the country it was perpetrated in.
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Taricus

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Re: Well, Here's Some Bad News
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2011, 12:39:46 pm »

As a former member of the US Army, I am ashamed by the actions of these people.  Vile human beings, everyone of them.
Thats a kicker right there, how does the troops feel about this knowing their own mates did this shit?
Like a kick to the balls.  They put honorable serving men and women into unnecesary danger from people who otherwise might not have been involved in trying to hurt US Troops.  Also, and more importantly, they murdered innocent civilians.  Literally the lowest of the low in human behavior, when the powerful prey unon the weak for fun.  It is only in cases like this when I think we should hand over the traitors to the justice of the country it was perpetrated in.

If the civilians were Pashtun...

It suck to be those soldiers...
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Leafsnail

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Re: Well, Here's Some Bad News
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2011, 12:41:57 pm »

...Does the US have extradition agreements with Afghanistan?  I suppose they won't really get it much better being tried in the US, though.
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RedKing

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Re: Well, Here's Some Bad News
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2011, 12:42:41 pm »

Oh... Oh damn. Thats just... Wrong. It makes it seem so petty really... The american army lets people like that in? How sad...

Those people most likely like that when they got in. As I said earlier they most likely have severe mental health issues such as PTSD.

lolwut? You basically just said, "They were most likely crazy when they got in. They most likely got driven crazy by the war."

As to PTSD, it exists and I've seen it in friends firsthand. It's what the old-timers called "shellshock" -- when your brain absolutely, positively just can't deal with any more of the bullshit that goes on in a war. Incidentally, George Carlin had a gem of a bit back in the 80's about the transition in language from "shellshock" to "PTSD".
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As to whether that was the cause here...no. PTSD is never a cause for actions like this. A contributing factor, certainly. But in order to do shit like this, you have to have a tiny bit of you that would be willing to do it in the first place. The PTSD just removes the inhibitions, the moral safeguards that are socially programmed into you from childhood. But the disturbing part is that the vast majority of us have that tiny little bit that could do this. We don't like to admit it, but experiments have shown that most people are utter bastards, if you give them the right circumstances.

And yes, the Army is trying to do a better job of dealing with the psychological damage, but the resources still aren't there, and the extended and repeated tours are really putting a drain on troops. My brother's between tours right now, but he's pulled three in Iraq and is probably looking at one more in Afghanistan when he's eligible again. That's a lot of time deployed. His marriage is already a casualty of the war. And his daughter has spent most of her childhood talking to Daddy through late-night phone calls, or if they're lucky a couple of minutes on Skype.

And this isn't a new phenomenon. It's just better documented now. There's an excellent book by the military historian John Keegan called The Face of Battle that discusses the change in warfare over the centuries, from the average soldier's point of view. He compares three major battles seperated by a few centuries each: Agincourt (1415), Waterloo (1815), and the Somme (1916). One of the salient points was that even as war became less personal and less visceral, it became more difficult for soldiers to cope with because they felt increasingly powerless. At Agincourt, you could see the enemy ran up in your face. At Waterloo, you could see their uniforms at musket range. By the Somme, you were getting machine-gunned by enemies you could barely make out, or blasted by artillery miles away, or killed by land mines that you never even saw.

Now, push-button death can come from hundreds of miles away. But for Coalition troops, it's coming mostly from IEDs, or from shoot-and-scoot sniper attacks. In either case, you're left with an injured or dead comrade, and no enemy available to fight back against. Over time, the psychological toll of being whittled down by an enemy that won't engage you in a fight leads to this sort of thing, where the population themselves become proxies for the enemy, even for well-trainined troops. We had the same types of incidents in Vietnam, even in Korea.

 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 12:45:50 pm by RedKing »
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Strife26

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Re: Well, Here's Some Bad News
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2011, 02:22:43 pm »

Bastards. They'll probably be assigned to Ft. Leavenworth for a few lifetimes, where they'll be treated about as they deserve.


Beating a mental check-up is a terribly easy thing to do. There exists a NCO support channel for a reason, the Non-commissioned officer is supposed to be making sure those under him are doing okay. Fuuuuuck.


Also, as a note, the Army Times broke that particular story back when I was still in OSUT (Augustish, I believe).

And I'm especially ashamed of it, being that they were in a Striker unit, which are usually crewed by Tankers like myself.
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de5me7

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Re: Well, Here's Some Bad News
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2011, 04:18:29 pm »

Oh... Oh damn. Thats just... Wrong. It makes it seem so petty really... The american army lets people like that in? How sad...

an American maybe able to correct me if im wrong, but at least until the early 1990s, if not present some states would offer an army tour as an alternative to a short term prison sentence.
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Re: Well, Here's Some Bad News
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2011, 04:19:58 pm »

an American maybe able to correct me if im wrong, but at least until the early 1990s, if not present some states would offer an army tour as an alternative to a short term prison sentence.

I've heard of a case of that happening a few years ago but I can't confirm it.
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Sowelu

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Re: Well, Here's Some Bad News
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2011, 06:18:17 pm »

Anecdotes aren't worth much for something like that.  I seriously, seriously doubt it's true in the USA.  I could understand if it was something a little bit different like--someone already in the military was about to be deployed, gets grabbed for some nonviolent offense and sentenced to a week or two, and the military says "Nah we need you on the front lines, don't worry we'll make sure he takes his share at driving point in the convoy".  But...no, I reeeeeeeeeally don't think that military service in place of prison happens here.  Or in much of any place other than uh...well...books.
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