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[Sowelu]

LOL, i am starting a new game tomorrow with some new players, and I was gonna use something right along the lines of

"Rat-people that basically only live in the slums"

as my starting adventure arc.  Awesome.  Course, they were gonna be were-rats, not a DM pet race, but no one was gonna know that of course.  Now I feel a need to get more creative.  I shouldn't, I came up with the were-rat ideas on my own freely, but, now I feel like a copycat.  Aaargh!   

Well, wererats are actually pretty darn different from the Genna I was using.  Mine were...well, imagine if lizardmen had kiiiinda integrated into society across the planet, but not very well because they were pathetic.  A "lesser race" if you will, and not just a local phenomenon, it's just that they lived in cities instead of swamps or wherever.  And they really were known for being pathetic too.  Elves are tree-huggers, halflings overeat, half-orcs get in bar fights, and Genna wind up begging on the streets.  It's just how the world works.  (They actually dropped in from another plane a long while back, so they're more recent to the world than other races and their cultural history is basically missing.  No crafts, no long-spanning knowledge or guild skills.  Not that anyone in the world hardly knows that.)  In any case, they were almost exactly as threatening as halflings, so if you're using wererats it'll be a very different adventure entirely.

[Neonivek]

Awsome

I may not have to DM Dungeons and Dragons because the player forcing me to is realising how overly restrictive and anti-awsome many of the rules it uses are.

Go me!

It was pretty easy once a player wanted to play a demon and mentioning that they will suck no matter what with it. (and it is true too! You can either get level adjustment and suck, or not get level adjustment and just be a sucky race. Some Varient rules actually try to make Level adjustment races MUCH MUCH better by simply turning them into a class so to speak with their own HD and all that... I can't find those rules though...)

[GlyphGryph]

Yes! Don't play D&D! Win!



Unfortunately, most systems handle non-standard races quite poorly, so I can't offer much advice on that front if you still want to plat a fantasy RPG with non-standard races.

[Neonivek]

Unfortunately my friend is desperate enough that I have to house rule a new race...

[Truean]

So what are some good alternative systems to D&D and where are the player networks for them? That seems to be the main question.

[nenjin]

It really depends on what they want that D&D isn't providing.

Less rules? GURPs, D20 of various varieties, World of Darkness. Basically any game that goes for pool systems tends to be very flexible, both in re-writing it or creating new elements to work with it.

If the format is just getting old, as in people are tired of creating D&D characters solely to find +something weapons and gain levels....branch out.

Shadowrun (4th?) Ed. is pretty good.

Legend of the Five Rings is amazing, if you dig ancient Eastern cultures. Love that system. It makes for a good replacement for D&D.

Call of Cthulhu games march to the beat of an entirely different drum than most PnP games out there.

Older World of Darkness games are also great because you get really attached to your characters and they develop in really cool ways...and they tend to have to deal with more than D&D characters. It's not *just* HP and staying true your alignment in WoD games, there's tons of things going on that a good DM can work with. To me there's a lot of RP inspiration built right into WoD systems.

Gaming networking, I can't really help with. I never really moved beyond gaming with my circle of friends or gaming down at the local shop. WoD has some extensive networks mostly centered around live action roleplaying. But there are some large meta-games going on that I think are PBEM or something.

[Neonivek]

I suggest staying away from Call of Cthuhu d20 though...

d20 is like a disease. Infecting already good systems and turning them into a clone of everyone else.

Though maybe I should look up some D20 books for those races I have to house rule... ignoring that I should just outright kill that player for having a race that likely cannot fit in the world.

[nenjin]

My RoT is if a game predated a d20 version of the franchise, the older ones is probably in many ways more interesting or fun to play. Shoehorning older game systems into d20 is blech.

Games that are built around d20 to start with, I tend to go a lot easier on.

[Sowelu]

I mentioned Deadlands earlier.  It's not hard to find the first edition to order from the internet.  If you are bored with D&D and White Wolf and you want a really, truly /novel/ experience with unique mechanics, Deadlands sure as hell is the way to go.  Your players will be too busy going "Wow, this setting and these mechanics are so awesome!" to worry about things like balance or being underpowered, and it gives you so much latitude as a GM that you can do pretty much anything you want to kick things back in line.

Seriously I can't give enough love for that.  Hell, compare your silly D&D "Roll 7 x 4d6 drop lowest die, drop lowest roll, assign wherever you want" to this.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Your stats are in the form of XdY.  If you don't have skills, having a stat of 4d10 does...just what it says on the tin:  Roll that, take the best.

Shuffle a deck of playing cards, two jokers included.  Deal 12 cards.  For each card, the value is the die type:  2 is d4, 3-8 is d6, 9-J is d8, QK is d10, A is d12.  The suit is the number of dice:  Clubs is 1dX, diamonds is 2dX, hearts is 3dX, spades is 4dX.

You have ten stats.  Drop two cards, assign the rest wherever you want.  You CAN'T drop a d4 card, you have to use it.  If you get a joker, it counts as a d12 (draw another card for suit), but...you also get something Very Special.

And yeah getting stuck with a d4 sucks, but when you've got ten different primary stats, it doesn't cripple you that hard.  It gives a lot of character.  That, and I've never seen a system that allows you to have fun with so MANY different characters.  Some of your characters might be bounty hunters or priests or mad scientists, some of them might be elderly schoolmarms or morbidly obese doctors, and it all works out somehow.

...Once you're done with that, you get skills and stuff like any other game really.  But they do like using playing cards as mechanics.  Like, initiative.  You get cards for initiative and each round counts down from ace; you can take act on any phase of your card or lower.  And then there's magic, by which I mean making deals with the devil, which involve poker hands...  Oh yeah it's good.

But seriously.  One book.  It's cheap, like back in the old days, when RPG books were softcover and didn't need a seperate DMG and Monster Manual.  Dooo eeet.

[nenjin]

My take on Deadlands is that it's fun, unique, and yeah, unlike most other PnP games. The rules are hit or miss though, especially if people are complaining about rules from other games. Deadlands has a rigid, overly tinkered with rules system. I enjoyed it, but it's not the game I would try to give to everyone. Sort of like how I wouldn't say Hackmaster is the game for everyone. 

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

Heck, if your going back to old versions, go back to old D&D.  It'll be a completely different experience, when you consider just how different the d20 system actually was from D&D (not to be confused with AD&D).  But, since thats the second time I brought it up, i will quit harping on it now.

I thought Deadlands was less rigid than nenjin seems to think, but criticism and opinion is fair for games and our experiences with them.  I never got to play Legend of the Five Rings, but always wanted to.  Call of Cthulu is good for some weird fun, but for pure WTF is going on craziness, you cannot go wrong with Paranoia.  Damn thats a fun game.  Going way back, first edition Gamma World was all of 15 pages of rules and 30 pages of creatures and las guns and robotics death machines.  Simple and enjoyable.  Star Frontiers was -so-so.  Top Secret was a true joy to play and hand one of the most unique hand-to-hand combat systems ever.  Definately a game to be checked out if your looking at old non-d20 variants.  Boothill if you want a western without Deadlands.  Gangbusters if you are into The Godfather.

If you want to play D&D and feel that the system of

.....find +something weapons and gain levels....

is dead and buried, you could always go for Darksun or Ravenloft camapign settings (although the original Ravenlost module was far superior to any world-verse they created).  I am a major personall fan of Darksun and it is most definately NOT your run of the mill D&D-verse.  Or, you can get really creative and do something I did in my last game, have a space ship crash in the middle of their dungeon delving experience.  It is something you have to do with care, but can totally rehook players into the game.  One Dm I had, while we played a Hawaiin islander feel D&D game, had a 2 mile long 40 story Submarine rise outta the ocean in our bay.  caught us totally off guard and ended up being the coolest game I was ever part of.  Or maybe other TSR worlds, like Kara-tur (i think it was) or the Arabian-like universe that old TSR had.  Or hollow earth or spell jammers.  Just throwin ideas about.  D&D can be so much more than just monster-treasure-level. 

Yes, as you can see, I am very TSR/D&D biased, probably because I started playing their games in 1977.  So, I guess Im the old curmedgeon of this discussion probably.  lol


PS:  Twilight 2000?  Travellor?  Aftermath?  Rifts?  good and fun stuff all.

[Neonivek]

Any tips on Custom races in Dungeons and dragons? I have no idea how to value abilities.

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

Aaarrrghh, geez, ask a simple question whydontcha?  lol
Disclaimer:  below is written with the implication of a new race for d20 D&D
To be honest, I base them all off of humans and change their physical description.  Then I start adding little details, both pro and con, and I mean little.  Even as much as a +2 bonus can totally unbalance something.  Man, there is no real easy set rule here.  Oddly, I find Pathfinders races to be the most balanced I have ever seen.  Another way I look at it is this:  what if everyone on the planet has an equal baseline for all stats, then, what little nudges can I do to add flavor to a unique race.  If you end up with a race with all positive bonuses without negatives, you know need to make some level-adjustments.  Making some bonuses situational or enviromental can alleviate that to some extent and bring the new race back to balance.

try this:
In cold enviroments:  what races thrive, what races face hardship, assume human is avg.
In hot enviroments:  see above
In forests:  see above
In deserts:
In mountains:
In caves/underground:
In sunlight/darkness:
Then, look at:
What races are tough and resilient, what races are fragile, assume human is avg.
What races are fast, slow.
What races are smart/not so smart.
These lists can go on infinatum nearly.  Make sure you apply each question to every race.  Then compare bonuses and negatives.  If one race seems to not have a balance, give it level-adjusting.

I feel like this isnt very helpful, sorry, just throwing this idea at you.  Someone else can prolly give better rules/rationalizations here.

Maybe I will write out some of my own races tomorrow, its late now.

[Neonivek]

Mostly all I know is it is supposed to be some sort of humanoid demon race with NO level adjustment.
-Dungeons and dragons does level adjustment... badly. Especially bad with races with level adjustment that becomes pointless later on. Some alternate rules fix this but they arn't widely practiced.

I have to ask this for a player...

Is there any Chaotic versions of Monks?

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

Chaotic monks?  Only if u as a DM allow it.  i personally find rules like that to be bogus.  Also, it sounded to me liek your demon guy just wanted to be more powerful than everyone else.  I would have admonished that player.

But you could look up a "plane-touched" character.  I dont think they are level adjusted.  There are demonic and other versions.

But someone who wants to play a demon?  he would really have to prove to me some awesome Roleplaying chops.  Also, i would be honestly and purposely trying to kill him with high level paladins (and telling him up front about it) every single adventure (its what they do!).  I had one guy playing a wizard who went dark and evil like a demon.  He was an eipc demi-god type PC by that time.  A squad of Paladins showed up to pick a bone with his "child abductions and sacrifices" and killed him.  The guy got angry, I laughed and said, "what the fuck did you expect to happen?"