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[GlyphGryph]

+1 to the above idea!

[nenjin]

I won't state that the guy's a wizard, and he'll be wearing a cloak with a heavy hood.

Which is exactly what I did. Which is still a huge cliche. People in heavy cloaks with long beards asking for artifacts of legend = wizards and/or bad guys.

...Well here's a fun idea you could use:  The wizard didn't just hire the heroes.  He hired A LOT OF PEOPLE.  In seperate groups.

I also did this. Sort of an insurance policy from the NPC's end. Heroes are expendable, and he hired cut throats as well as a band of guys with a Paladin. The other group they ran into were their competitors. It confused the PCs a bit, but never really undercut the fact they knew they were dealing with a shady wizard.

One thing you could do, if you're planning for a long-term campaign, is have front men for your Wizard. Have him use representatives that DON'T set off the player's bad guy alarm. Halflings. Charming females. Priests (who might actually be de-frocked.) Every DM wants their bad guy to have words with the player, but it's often premature and anti-climatic in reality. Plus, when done right, the shock of knowing you've been working for the bad guy spawns an adventure all it's own: the quest for REVENGE.

[Truean]

I won't state that the guy's a wizard, and he'll be wearing a cloak with a heavy hood.

Which is exactly what I did. Which is still a huge cliche. People in heavy cloaks with long beards asking for artifacts of legend = wizards and/or bad guys.

The smart drug dealers wear business suits, because everyone know drug dealers don't wear business suits....

[nenjin]

The best villains in D&D I've ever had to deal with were often heard of, but rarely seen. Truly great bad guys have to take on a legend of their own in the mind of the players without every actually having done anything to them.

And not the "Sauron in his dark tower" kind of bad guy, the omnipotent kind that can't reach out and squash you because they're arbitrarily prevented by the rules of the universe.

No, the best bad guys are the elusive but very tangible ones. The ones that the players are always 10 minutes late in catching, that set up every deal the players stumble upon but always do it from a distance. The ones that surround themselves with layers of committed, competent henchmen, instead of lackeys intended to be beaten and/or interrogated.

Or, more simply put, Kaiser Soze. He doesn't have to be running some kind of Xanatos Roulette. But their legend should precede them. Nothing puts a dent in that faster than them dealing with the players directly in the first adventure.

One of the most memorable villains we had to face in D&D was named, I shit you not, Ovaltine. Yes, Ovaltine. Why was he so awesome? Because every bad thing got attributed to him, both by us as players and the world. Famine? Ovaltine's doing. That town that burned down? Ovaltine and his people have been here. Creepy, non-normal monsters attacking the party while they camped? It must have been Ovaltine's doing. And the most we ever saw of this guy was him fleeing an encounter, and his face was covered by a mask. We never actually found out if he was responsible for half of what we thought he was....but the DM had done such a good job convincing us he was a mastermind, we practically invented motives for Ovaltine as the game went along.

[Virex]

Basically, the party is approached by a wizard (A very old and somewhat famous wizard, at that), and he wants to hire them to retrieve an artifact from some ruins at the other end of the continent. Ruins that the exact location of is the focus of speculation and rumour. That would be the main quest, but they'd be able to do stuff for other people along the way.

No offense, but that is a textbook adventure set up. In fact, the last major adventure I did started exactly this way.

The first thing that happened was the PCs immediately realized the Wizard was taking them for a ride. Not that he was screwing them over per se, but that he wasn't being 100% clear about what they were after or his reasons for wanting it. Whenever you give the players less information than they feel they should have (aka "mysterious artifact"), they're betrayal sensors start going off. Add an NPC (a wizard no less) wanting this magical artifact, and players will rightly assume that they're only getting 1/2 the story.

It's not a bad set up....and general plot outlines are general, but it has to go farther than that. If the Wizard is indeed going to use this artifact to become a bad buy the players have to take out....be prepared for them to not be surprised at all, unless you have done an exceptional job of misdirection. Basically, never ever make your "quest givers" two dimensional, because the lack of motive shows at the end of the adventure when they hand the thing over and the guy either goes "muwhahaha, fools!" or you simply hand out exp for a delivery well done.

I don't have a real point with this post, it's just your setup was 1:1 for the last adventure I ran, and PCs basically smelled 1/2 the plot coming before it even arrived. Wizards with tasks tend to have that effect on players.

Flip the idea over then: The wizard (who himself may or may not be evil) is trying to keep the artifact out of the hands of the real big bad and has to keep a low profile because of that. At some point have the big bad hand them some information painting the wizard as the big bad. Watch the surprise on their faces as they realize the rebel movement they were helping to overthrow the evil magocracy was nothing less then a magical version of the RAF. Bonus points if the campaign becomes Xanathos speed-chess between the wizard, the big bad and the PC party...

[Max White]

If you want, talk a little about the back story of each character with the player before the game starts, in private. This way you can arrange to have some players know something, and not others. I remember I once played the happy-go-lucky with slightly sub-par wisdom rogue, however, given the right night I assassinated each and every party member, because my entire home village was being held hostage by the big bad. I knew it, the DM knew it, and nobody thought for a second that the new guy would do anything interesting like that.

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

In response to the person who said 'people who only know 3.0+ ed D&D don't know what roleplaying is'.

I'm anti-powergaming/minmaxing. And I've only ever played 3.5e. I find that comment you made insulting.

Sorry, maybe I didnt say what I meant well, but maybe you didnt read my whole point, it was neither insulting nor all-encompassing.  I said "too many" not all.  I didnt say that they dont know how to roleplay, just misunderstand it, and i said it was the inherent fault of the game itself, not the players.  kudo's for you avoiding the the min-max temptation.

Do be careful with "bonus xp for RPing your flaws".  I've got a Deadlands game going with that rule, and one of players characters with black lung has taken to coughing obnoxiously at random times in a vain attempt to get more stuff, as though it was roleplay :|

"Damn it...Lung's acting up...Hard to get up this hill, wait a second guys" => well, that's good for portraying the inconveniences involved, especially if they were in a hurry.  Screwing over the whole party is bad, but being the one guy who's a round or two late to the sniping spot is okay.

"Okay so tell me about the last place you saw your sister COUGH COUGH HACK WHEEZE Oh I'm sorry was the NPC talking" =>

True enough about xp roleplaying rewards.  Cheesy repetition doesnt cut it.  Responding to new situations correctly in character/alignment does tho. 

Also, you play Deadlands?  Sweet.  Funnest game I have ever played.  Do you use the original rules or the newer d20 version (please say original rules)?

If you want, talk a little about the back story of each character with the player before the game starts, in private. This way you can arrange to have some players know something, and not others. I remember I once played the happy-go-lucky with slightly sub-par wisdom rogue, however, given the right night I assassinated each and every party member, because my entire home village was being held hostage by the big bad. I knew it, the DM knew it, and nobody thought for a second that the new guy would do anything interesting like that.

Those kind of games are fun as long as everyone knows its ok.  Its not fair to do that to a group of people on the sly w/o them knowing it was even an option.  But its still fun to do tho    I remember a thief that hated a certain party member.  So he stole another party members stuff and put it in the backpack of the guy he hated and then just waited.  It was awesome.  If you want to mess with the players, find one who you trust, and every know and then slip him a note in front of eveyone.  leave it blank.  it will keep them on their toes.  If you want to allow note passing to Dm for secrets, be very careful to keep a tight rain on it, or that is all that will happen for two hours and the players wont get outta the tavern until you start a fight and call the guards and force them out.

[Sowelu]

Also, you play Deadlands?  Sweet.  Funnest game I have ever played.  Do you use the original rules or the newer d20 version (please say original rules)?

There's a d20 version?  *looks up, whistling innocently as a pile of books erupts in flames* Not anymore there's not.

No, I played original rules, first edition, and I run original rules, revised edition.  I think I like first edition better.  The revised edition has poor copy-editing, and some of the rules are worse.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The rate of fire rules are not as good.  Specifically, all handguns and maybe all long guns fire twice as fast, which leaves gatling-pistol users scratching their heads and wondering why they bothered...considering that they get one hit on a success, +1 for each raise, max three shots per action (ROF is 3) and only the first hit can be a called shot, while the guy with two double-action pistols can take four called shots per action and the guy with a single-action pistol can probably fan it faster and easier too.  With 4d12 or so and a couple Colts, a gunslinger is nearly guaranteed to put two 3d6 bullets in the chest of anyone he wants, every single action.

So I'm thinking of house-ruling that back to 1st Ed.  Still need to make some house rules for hucksters and for guts checks, though.  Dealing with the devil should be dangerous, but not "You cast a spell, okay, saving throw vs. death" like it is now--in my last game I played in, my party wiped because our huckster had one wound to the guts already, then drew a joker on Corporeal Twist, took four more wounds, and dropped dead.  Also, fear rolls really blow with exploding dice, which limits my ability to use them at all.  "Oh, it's a low-grade monster, just 2d6" -> Quite frequently, someone in the party winds up with a 15 or higher which really cripples them for the fight, and a 3d6 monster is near guaranteed to make someone in the group pass out.  I think I'll rule that failing a guts check gives them a second check at difficulty 5 or 7 or something, where each success and raise reduces the number of fear dice to a minimum of, I dunno, half the original rounded up.

I also need to keep my less-creative players from playing mad scientists.  In the group I played in, I don't think she did anything but build a dynamite launcher--which was admittedly pretty cool, but if she had thought to make some body armor we might still be alive--and in my current group, our mad scientist is played by someone else who keeps asking me "I don't know what to make, give me ideas :<".  God help us all though if she finds any mention of a gatling rifle, she's a little too fond of her 5d8 monstrosity.  High Shootin':Automatic + a reasonable chance of three 5d8 hits every turn at close range = Oooookay, it's time to play with the big boys now.

EDIT:  Oh!  Also, if you happen to have an Android phone, I made a Deadlands dice roller app.  With sound effects for rolling, raising, going bust, etc.  :|

[Max White]

Those kind of games are fun as long as everyone knows its ok.  Its not fair to do that to a group of people on the sly w/o them knowing it was even an option.  But its still fun to do tho    I remember a thief that hated a certain party member.  So he stole another party members stuff and put it in the backpack of the guy he hated and then just waited.  It was awesome.  If you want to mess with the players, find one who you trust, and every know and then slip him a note in front of eveyone.  leave it blank.  it will keep them on their toes.  If you want to allow note passing to Dm for secrets, be very careful to keep a tight rain on it, or that is all that will happen for two hours and the players wont get outta the tavern until you start a fight and call the guards and force them out.

Our paladin brutally slaughtered our bard for using bluff in front of him. In these games, finding a good reason in character to kill another player was a sport. And it was awesome fun.

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

Those kind of games are fun as long as everyone knows its ok.  Its not fair to do that to a group of people on the sly w/o them knowing it was even an option.  But its still fun to do tho    I remember a thief that hated a certain party member.  So he stole another party members stuff and put it in the backpack of the guy he hated and then just waited.  It was awesome.  If you want to mess with the players, find one who you trust, and every know and then slip him a note in front of eveyone.  leave it blank.  it will keep them on their toes.  If you want to allow note passing to Dm for secrets, be very careful to keep a tight rain on it, or that is all that will happen for two hours and the players wont get outta the tavern until you start a fight and call the guards and force them out.

Our paladin brutally slaughtered our bard for using bluff in front of him. In these games, finding a good reason in character to kill another player was a sport. And it was awesome fun.

One time something happened purely by chance, which is always the best way of course.  A friend of mine was playing a monk (1st ed AD&Dbtw) and my half-orc fighter was out front doing his deal.  In two combats in a row, the monk used a crossbow and rolled a 1 followed by a 1.  Both times, when determining LOS (line of sight), my half-orc was between the monk and his target.  Shoot me in the back once shame on you, shoot me in the back twice...........have a raging half-orc tie you naked to a tree and bleed you for the wolves.


Of course this was the same player who, in another game, I convinced to charge down a 120ft long corridor at 6 goblin archers.  I just wanted to test the archers abilities on someone other than my pretty self ( i was playing a dandy type thief ).  To his credit, he physically reached the goblins at the end of the hall.  He was sliding on a grease track of his own dead guts of course, but he made it.  Good times......

Lol he also played a monk who tried a flying sidekick at a mob while on the stairs going around the outside of a very high tower.  He rolled a 1 . . . and then rolled a new monk......

Damn those were the days.  Just to be clear tho, he rolls dice FAR better than I.  I pulled 3 (yes 3) tripple 1's on a d20 in 2 hours.  My friends want to take me to vegas to bet against me.  But they forget I am always the guy to pull the nat20 out of his ass in the most freakish moments also.  LOL i only roll avg on char stats.

sorry, off topic i know, but, thanks for letting me share the memories.

@SOWELU - I am sooooooo jealous of you playing deadlands.  Also, thanks for destroying the d20 version.  Its an ABOMINATION.

[GlyphGryph]

Gorjo, I may not generally agree with your politics in General Chat, but man I would be honored to play a campaign with you (And Sowelu) any day of the week.

Also count me in the "jealous of playing Deadlands" group.

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

Gorjo, I may not generally agree with your politics in General Chat, but man I would be honored to play a campaign with you (And Sowelu) any day of the week.

Also count me in the "jealous of playing Deadlands" group.

Thanks Glyph, I appreciate it.  I keep thinking I might try one of the online games here, but for some reason I think it might be more a pain than fun.  Have you tried any of them?

As far as politics go, I know myself to be arrogant, thick headed, stubborn, and often spasticaly confrontational.  Its a character flaw i am working on.   

[scriver]

All these awesome stories makes me wish I roleplayed too. They're glorious.

[Grakelin]

The current main villain in our campaign is from one of the players' backstory. They have only met him as a group on one ocassion. The player who conceived him remains tight lipped about him for roleplaying reasons, and so the rest of the party is convinced that he is such a powerful warlock that they will go out of their way to avoid direct confrontation with him. It is glorious.

His henchmen, on the other hand, tend to be eviscerated before they can get any lines out.

Also, the PCs have noticed that, since much of the plot involves somebody raising an army from far off nations, everybody they meet who has an accent is an enemy.

[Neonivek]

Currently I am being forced to DM a game of dungeons and dragons.

My idea for the campaign, and I swear it isn't a copout, was that each player had to make a section of the world and together... well... that would be the world.

I hope it turns out well... Though I do have some nice twists in store. Too bad the game is likely never to get off the ground.