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[Orangebottle]

Still need a replacement for BD? If so, in.

[Heliman]

That's wonderful! but you really should PM Lordnincompoop instead of asking here. That goes for everyone else who wants to join to.

[Jim Groovester]

Ah. Actually... He's not here because he's been muted. For three days. I'm not trying to eat my own face right now in childish rage. Turning away is suggested, as it will make the sounds of rage mixed with agony coming from my direction easier to bare.

Welp, until he explains otherwise, I think he was trying to avoid answering my question. I can keep my vote there.

So, we've got two people temporarily gone, one person who can kinda sorta play, and then one who's seeking a replacement.

Not that I'm surprised this sort of stuff happens in a Beginner's game, but you can't play a mafia game with half the people missing.

[Heliman]

Yeah, but I was hoping at THE VERY LEAST we would do better than the players from the last game did, but nope. Same Inertia, and a ludicrously long Day 1. SOAB.

Sepharoth hasn't posted in 24 hours either.

[ECrownofFire]

Hello to Mafia from St Louis, Missouri. I have internet access and should be able to continue as normal, just two hours in the "future" for me.

Also, Supercharazard, it's a little hard to post from a plane, so there's that. Also, Mafia tends to be a game of reacting to people's posts, and nobody's really posted much anyway. Also, unvote, Supercharazard is finally posting useful things. But it's 1 AM now, so I'll be back tomorrow with something more.

[major_sephiroth]

I've been doing things.
Heliman:

He does use a little wifyiom on me. This is where you're partially correct.

It's WIFOYIFOM, lol man you're horrible at this acronym business.

I may not have callout out the caps lock specifically - I did say he looked suspicious and that I wanted him to answer everyones questions.

Really? I can't seem to find it. Where did you ask him to answer everyone's questions, exactly? Perhaps it was in scumchat?  >:I

If I were scum, I'd buddy you to cause - exactly what's happening. I'd only go for it if I'm willing to sacrifice myself, but both Toaster and Jim are saying you're scummy by association to me. If I were scum and flipped as such - they'd pressure you.  And with the two IC's pressuring you, the other beginners would trust them, and pressure you as well.

Seph, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I JUST SAID.

If he's scum trying to make me look scummy for a lynching by being overprotective, then he's only going to get himself lynched first, and if he flips scum it wouldn't matter if I get lynched the next night or not, because it would ultimately pro-town.

My quote even responded to your idle threat.

My intention was not to protect you from bread, but to poke holes in his arguement.  As I say earlier in this post, I've been suspicious of bread for a while too, so I'm going to make sure any case he uses against anyone is damn sound before I consider listening to it.

from what I've seen, as far as the Players at large are concerned, Bread still has no argument. In fact, if he actually had any relatively legitimate accusations towards me, I myself would have already beaten them down. I haven't, mostly because with every accusation so far he seems to dig himself into a grave. I know that if he's town may be a bad call by me, but either way he should learn to keep the rest of the players in mind when he hunts. Keep in mind that pride is a weakness, breadbocks!

It appears that I will be leaving tomorrow for a couple of weeks. Obviously this means that I won't be able to finish this game. You should probably put up a second replacement notice, but I'll still be able to stick around for another day or so. Sorry everyone, this was completely unexpected and I didn't know about this until last night.

ANOTHER ONE?
asljdkfha;sjldha;lksjhfa;jklhaklhgfjhfbalsdkljfna-
Well at least it's the first day. Not that finding someone to brave all these posts will be easy, mind.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of acronyms.
Here:

The King of Eggs:

IN ORDER TO SAVE ON QUOTE TAGS MY COMMENTS ARE GREEN

The King of Eggs, it could just be your different style of play, but you come off as heartless and overly defensive to me.  I mean WANTING a scumbuddy you can bus? Wouldn't you much prefer a scumbuddy who's just skilled? I SUFFER FROM PARRANOIR, I TRUST NO ONE NOT TO BUS ME FIRST.

So. You like questions?
(These are directed at The King of Eggs)
If you were a cop, who would you investigate, based on the day so far? JIM, HE IS A POWERFUL TOWN ALLY OR A POWERFUL MAFIA MEMBER, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHICH
If you were a vigilante, (even though there can't be one), who would you kill? I WOULD TARGET JIM WITH THIS POWER ROLE ALSO, AS IF I CAN NOT BE SURE OF HIS ALLIGENCE THEN I CAN NOT CO-EXIST WITH HIM. OF COURSE VIG USSUALLY DON'T KILL N1, AND I FOLLOW THAT PRACTISE
Also, if you could elaborate on this:

basically i would pick someone i could if i needed to yes

I MEAN THAT I WOULD CHOOSE SOMEONE I COULD USE AS A DISTRACTION QUICKLY IF NEEDED

On to the fun part. Firstly: I'm paranoid too, mostly. And I wouldn't bus my scumbuddy unless they were going down anyway and/or useless.  Pre-emptive bussing wouldn't help.
Your cop target: Not bad. I did that one game - investigate the IC. It would've helped if I wasn't NK'd.
Your vig target: You'd risk the fact he was town? I thought you were paranoid. Also - you don't need to follow traditional practice.  If I had a scumpick, I know I'd hit them N1.
Your elaboration: That isn't too scummy, but you are heartless.
My vote stays off you for now. The FoS stays on.

And to you guys who are worried about times: weekends count for 0 hours guys!

Your next point: I was answering your question wasn't I? I can't be assed at this point to look back further.
Also on that: Idle threat? Jeez you're an idiot.
Next point: Not much to add.

Hopping in since there isn't much to say anymore:
Vote major_sephiroth, long overdue, due to me acting like a nondecisive pansy in front of an IC.

Eh, I've said before your vote is sound. I was kinda wondering why you unvoted anyway.

Yeah, but I was hoping at THE VERY LEAST we would do better than the players from the last game did, but nope. Same Inertia, and a ludicrously long Day 1. SOAB.

Sephiroth hasn't posted in 24 hours either.

I was doing things. Plus, everytime I post I have to build a wall of text, so I'll look over the thread and not post occasionally.

Toaster:

Major:

Okay. In order:
An example: Person A attempts to convince everyone he's town. He is. Person B is also town - but doesn't buy his story and continues to press him. The scum NK Person B. They then cry out: "Person A's only opposition was NK'd! Mighty suspicious!"  And they continue to get person A lynched. Then all that went against him can just say that they were tricked by the scum.

Also you're the IC, so if this example is unrealistic, say so.

Gotcha.  The problem is that's using terrible WIFOM logic, and I'd be all over the person trying to push that crap.  It's realistic, but it's scummy to try something like that.

Onto question:
Well, it's not a clear yes or no, it's situational. The townie could do this to use WIFOM on the mafia - and (possibly) buy him another day of scumhunting, assuming he's not lynched.  Alternatively, if the townie is the center of a bandwagon, he could do this to convince the town to lynch someone else, as he may be NK'd.  If he IS NK'd, anyone who was quick to unvote looks suspicious, and if not, he looks suspicious and argh I could write 10 pages on this and not get anywhere.

I meant more in the context of "I am the most dangerous scum hunter and you should remove me."  In any case, fair enough answer.

Did you happen to notice that I said: "Unless Heliman continues to be scummy" And that I didn't vote him until a while after the 24 hours because Heliman was looking scummy? He was one of my other scumpicks - I just progressed to the next one after me pressure on Heliman didn't get anywhere.  It was mostly a case of "Get in here or there will be consequences!"

Yes, I noticed.  It made the case worse.  As written, you can stay on Heliman if he keeps votes or move on to BD if he doesn't.

It's not "Oh I'll look bad if I vote him", it's "Damn, no evidence. Better not cast a vote."

Also, mind pointing out exactly where I say self-preservation is higher than scum?

Sure.

Onto the bad part. Most of my attack was based on you saying you're a goldmine of WIFOM - and that's apparently a misinterpretation. An attack without base is crap - and I think you've had enough pressure from me. I think you're scum, but until I can convince the town of that, Unvote. You've still got my FoS to keep you company though, Heliman. To clarify - I think he's scum - I just have no evidence, and if I push my reasoning further, it's going to hurt me, not him. If you want to attack him, by all means - go for it. Just don't quote me word for word.

--SNIP--

PRE-POST EDIT: I feel I should elaborate on my mindgame. I thought TKoE was scum. Overreacting and whatnot - but I didn't want to vote him on that, as it'd be a blatant bandwagon.  I knew I could convince someone to vote him with enough questions, and I happened to get Heli with my first one.  So Heli, I wasn't as sheepish as you thought.

See the underlined bits.  You don't say it directly, but it's strongly implicit.  In the first paragraph, you're backing off someone you say is scum because you don't have evidence.  The correct move is to press him for that evidence.  You shouldn't care if pressing an attack makes you look bad (hint- it won't if it's based on honest suspicion).  In the second, same deal: Town has no reason to not vote someone they think is scum.  If he's scum, vote him and explain why.

I had sparse articulate reasons but they were based on a mis-interpretation. Voting without it would be a bandwagon.

Then get those reasons.

For my response to bread, I typed up what I thought on each post. I didn't see anything solid in there - it wouldn't matter if it was Heliman or not, I made and stated my opinion on his arguements, not on who they're against.

On your second linked post, I have a habit of just adding my two cents in. See later in that post for an example, and earlier for a different one.

Defending others is generally a bad habit.  If you want someone else to be voted, convince people by bringing your case against your target, not by tearing down someone's argument against another person.

I make myself look SO SCUMMY with my scum logic expeditions but here's another one:

You're right there.

If I were scum, I'd buddy you to cause - exactly what's happening. I'd only go for it if I'm willing to sacrifice myself, but both Toaster and Jim are saying you're scummy by association to me. If I were scum and flipped as such - they'd pressure you.  And with the two IC's pressuring you, the other beginners would trust them, and pressure you as well.

This is WIFOM, pure and simple.  Just don't post things like this- they don't do anyone any good.

First point: Eh. Glad I made a realistic situation.
Third point: Yeah yeah, I look scummy. In this case - there's no ulterior motive. It is what's there and only what's there.
Fourth point: Yeah I see what you're getting at. And you're right - I care about surviving until the end, because I'm yet to do that in Mafia. But I've also been scumhunting. Pushing bread after that statement - Heliman before it. Survival is a secondary objective for me. Finding scum is the natural primary.
Fifth point: Yeah, I'm not an omnipotent scumhunter Toaster. If there are no reasons I can see, then I have no reasons. I went through Heli's posts a few times and the only thing I could find was the TvTropes link fiasco.
Sixth point: I didn't like bread's arguement so I destroyed it - no intention to defend, and he was my target.
Seventh/Eighth point: I was trying to be active in conversation, but sure. No more scumlogic expeditions.

Superchar: (No, I will not type your whole name because you mis-spelt Charizard.)

unvote.Sorry, I had a rather large backlog of homework, I still have a bit to do, but sorry for not posting :/

My current scumpicks are:
major_sephiroth,

I think you're scum, but until I can convince the town of that, Unvote.

I think a kick was just delivered to my brain, and I just lost about 50 IQ, just from reading that >.<

You are meant to PRESS people! You don't give up on someone because the rest of the town doesn't believe you, you PRESS THEM.

If I were scum, I'd buddy you to cause - exactly what's happening. I'd only go for it if I'm willing to sacrifice myself, but both Toaster and Jim are saying you're scummy by association to me. If I were scum and flipped as such - they'd pressure you.  And with the two IC's pressuring you, the other beginners would trust them, and pressure you as well.

Wine.

Okay. In order:
An example: Person A attempts to convince everyone he's town. He is. Person B is also town - but doesn't buy his story and continues to press him. The scum NK Person B. They then cry out: "Person A's only opposition was NK'd! Mighty suspicious!"  And they continue to get person A lynched. Then all that went against him can just say that they were tricked by the scum.

Also you're the IC, so if this example is unrealistic, say so.

Wine.

I thought TKoE was scum. Overreacting and whatnot - but I didn't want to vote him on that, as it'd be a blatant bandwagon

Passive. It's not a blatant bandwagon, so long as you have a reason.


My second scumpick:

Crownoffire, for NOT POSTING (yes, I know I'm one to talk, but still.), he's barely doing anything :/



Now, I dropped Bread, because a small hunch isn't exactly evidence.

Major_Sephiroth, why is that you seem to be trying to pump wine into our mouthes with a large, high pressure fire hose?

First, stop hitting enter/return so much.
Your first point:
Yes, and I HAVE PRESSED PEOPLE. That sentence is NOT a travesty to mafia. I didn't believe myself at that point. Still don't.
Second point: "Wine." Lovely description. Note my first words in that: "If I were scum". The scum use Wine - thus that quote is full. There's also the larger wine of you calling me scum because you think I'm doing that. Yeah. It's wine. Passing it off as nothing is more wine. Note Heli's response and rebuttal to that. It would work out in the towns favour at the end. So, even if that WAS what I was doing, the town has nothing to worry about.
Third: Did you read Toaster's post about it? It's another example that involves scum, so it involves scummy logic, and some wine for good measure. It's what COULD happen. Little chance of it in this game though.
Fourth: Will you please READ ALL MY POSTS. I have said that I didn't have much evidence against TKoE, so I got Heliman to get it. I didn't have enough of a reason to vote him, so I didn't.
Fifth: Crown's been posting. Significantly more than you.

Your final line:
Did you have to fancy it up? I've bolded the spelling mistakes. And I KNOW I look scummy, I have said that. You think I'm scummy because I think about what the scum would do, and what I would do as scum.  You can't beat what you don't understand. Hell, I don't even understand it that much.



If I'm missing any questions: Screw you and ask again.

[Jim Groovester]

That's a horrible mess of a post. You should work on being clearer.

Second point: "Wine." Lovely description. Note my first words in that: "If I were scum". The scum use Wine - thus that quote is full. There's also the larger wine of you calling me scum because you think I'm doing that. Yeah. It's wine. Passing it off as nothing is more wine. Note Heli's response and rebuttal to that. It would work out in the towns favour at the end. So, even if that WAS what I was doing, the town has nothing to worry about.

How is calling you scum for using WIFOM WIFOM? That makes absolutely no sense. You're just making crap up, aren't you?

I also don't like that you bumbling around with all this WIFOM nonsense works out for the town in the end no matter what you do. No, sorry, that doesn't happen.

And for goodness' sake will everybody stop trying to call what everybody's doing WIFOM? It's completely pointless and you all sound idiotic. Everybody, and I do mean everybody, and just for emphasis, if you think you shouldn't be included in this then you're wrong, just stop it with the WIFOM bullshit. It'll get you positively nowhere and you'll sound 110% smarter the moment you stop.

If I see it one more time, I don't know what I'll do. But it'll probably involve lots of swearing and wondering why you keep ignoring what I tell you and whether or not your brain is atrophying from disuse.

[Toaster]

Jim:  Stop trying to WIFOM us.


Major:

Spoiler: Previous points (click to show/hide)

Toaster:

Major:

Okay. In order:
An example: Person A attempts to convince everyone he's town. He is. Person B is also town - but doesn't buy his story and continues to press him. The scum NK Person B. They then cry out: "Person A's only opposition was NK'd! Mighty suspicious!"  And they continue to get person A lynched. Then all that went against him can just say that they were tricked by the scum.

Also you're the IC, so if this example is unrealistic, say so.

Gotcha.  The problem is that's using terrible WIFOM logic, and I'd be all over the person trying to push that crap.  It's realistic, but it's scummy to try something like that.

Onto question:
Well, it's not a clear yes or no, it's situational. The townie could do this to use WIFOM on the mafia - and (possibly) buy him another day of scumhunting, assuming he's not lynched.  Alternatively, if the townie is the center of a bandwagon, he could do this to convince the town to lynch someone else, as he may be NK'd.  If he IS NK'd, anyone who was quick to unvote looks suspicious, and if not, he looks suspicious and argh I could write 10 pages on this and not get anywhere.

I meant more in the context of "I am the most dangerous scum hunter and you should remove me."  In any case, fair enough answer.

Did you happen to notice that I said: "Unless Heliman continues to be scummy" And that I didn't vote him until a while after the 24 hours because Heliman was looking scummy? He was one of my other scumpicks - I just progressed to the next one after me pressure on Heliman didn't get anywhere.  It was mostly a case of "Get in here or there will be consequences!"

Yes, I noticed.  It made the case worse.  As written, you can stay on Heliman if he keeps votes or move on to BD if he doesn't.

It's not "Oh I'll look bad if I vote him", it's "Damn, no evidence. Better not cast a vote."

Also, mind pointing out exactly where I say self-preservation is higher than scum?

Sure.

Onto the bad part. Most of my attack was based on you saying you're a goldmine of WIFOM - and that's apparently a misinterpretation. An attack without base is crap - and I think you've had enough pressure from me. I think you're scum, but until I can convince the town of that, Unvote. You've still got my FoS to keep you company though, Heliman. To clarify - I think he's scum - I just have no evidence, and if I push my reasoning further, it's going to hurt me, not him. If you want to attack him, by all means - go for it. Just don't quote me word for word.

--SNIP--

PRE-POST EDIT: I feel I should elaborate on my mindgame. I thought TKoE was scum. Overreacting and whatnot - but I didn't want to vote him on that, as it'd be a blatant bandwagon.  I knew I could convince someone to vote him with enough questions, and I happened to get Heli with my first one.  So Heli, I wasn't as sheepish as you thought.

See the underlined bits.  You don't say it directly, but it's strongly implicit.  In the first paragraph, you're backing off someone you say is scum because you don't have evidence.  The correct move is to press him for that evidence.  You shouldn't care if pressing an attack makes you look bad (hint- it won't if it's based on honest suspicion).  In the second, same deal: Town has no reason to not vote someone they think is scum.  If he's scum, vote him and explain why.

I had sparse articulate reasons but they were based on a mis-interpretation. Voting without it would be a bandwagon.

Then get those reasons.

For my response to bread, I typed up what I thought on each post. I didn't see anything solid in there - it wouldn't matter if it was Heliman or not, I made and stated my opinion on his arguements, not on who they're against.

On your second linked post, I have a habit of just adding my two cents in. See later in that post for an example, and earlier for a different one.

Defending others is generally a bad habit.  If you want someone else to be voted, convince people by bringing your case against your target, not by tearing down someone's argument against another person.

I make myself look SO SCUMMY with my scum logic expeditions but here's another one:

You're right there.

If I were scum, I'd buddy you to cause - exactly what's happening. I'd only go for it if I'm willing to sacrifice myself, but both Toaster and Jim are saying you're scummy by association to me. If I were scum and flipped as such - they'd pressure you.  And with the two IC's pressuring you, the other beginners would trust them, and pressure you as well.

This is WIFOM, pure and simple.  Just don't post things like this- they don't do anyone any good.

First point: Eh. Glad I made a realistic situation.
Third point: Yeah yeah, I look scummy. In this case - there's no ulterior motive. It is what's there and only what's there.
Fourth point: Yeah I see what you're getting at. And you're right - I care about surviving until the end, because I'm yet to do that in Mafia. But I've also been scumhunting. Pushing bread after that statement - Heliman before it. Survival is a secondary objective for me. Finding scum is the natural primary.
Fifth point: Yeah, I'm not an omnipotent scumhunter Toaster. If there are no reasons I can see, then I have no reasons. I went through Heli's posts a few times and the only thing I could find was the TvTropes link fiasco.
Sixth point: I didn't like bread's arguement so I destroyed it - no intention to defend, and he was my target.
Seventh/Eighth point: I was trying to be active in conversation, but sure. No more scumlogic expeditions.

(Spoiler added in quote for length)

Point 3:  I suppose, but it still says scum to me.

Point 4:  Your phrasing says those two objectives are in the wrong order.  You should never back off an honest suspicion because it's unpopular.  You shouldn't be attacked for an honest suspicion, in any case.  (That doesn't hold if the attacker doesn't think it's honest or if it's poorly backed up/reasoned out.)  Convince people that scum hunting is your primary and only goal and then you will be considered town.  Remember, your survival is not required.  It's a tough pill to swallow at first, but townies are disposable.

Point 5:  That's fine- that's why you're here, right?  If you have no reasons but still suspect, interrogate him until you either have reasons or no longer have suspicion.  If you stop suspecting, move on to your next target.

Point 6:  I suppose.  It's still notable, though.

Point 7/8:  Posting, in general, is good.  Posting WIFOM is anti-town.  Take the time to ask some questions instead.


King:  I believe you're coming back today.  Please give us your opinion on the events you missed, as well as your new scum picks.


Super:  Do you have any questions to back up that second pick?  If you suspect him, why aren't you grilling him?

[lordnincompoop]

Augh, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to modextend the day to Friday, 7PM GMT so that I'll be able to push through the last bunch of assessments.

[Supercharazad]

Guh... guh...


I think our IC needs a replacement, this day is about a week and a half long. I know we have long days in Mafia here, but that's ludicrous.

Toaster: I guess I'm losing interest.


Can I have a replacement? I'm getting bored with this game, so I see no point in continuing playing it. Once a replacement is ready, I'm going.

[Heliman]

God, you flakey little- Super, you've modded before, do you actually expect this kind of conduct in your own games? Having people flake due to IRL reasons is one thing, but quitting the game due to a long D1? Not only does it show that you need to spend more time learning paitence in BMs anyway, but it also shows that you're not respectful to the other players.

If you are stillI going to leave, know that I expected more of a Mod/SE than this. Hell, I expected more of a first time in noob than this. It's dissappointing.

[Supercharazad]

God, you flakey little- Super, you've modded before, do you actually expect this kind of conduct in your own games? Having people flake due to IRL reasons is one thing, but quitting the game due to a long D1? Not only does it show that you need to spend more time learning paitence in BMs anyway, but it also shows that you're not respectful to the other players.

If you are stillI going to leave, know that I expected more of a Mod/SE than this. Hell, I expected more of a first time in noob than this. It's dissappointing.

I lost interest.  To be honest, I really don't appreciate that post, you're trying to make me feel bad for allowing someone else to take my place because I'm not having fun anymore?

It seems you'd like me to stay, is it because I'm the one that the scum wants to get lynched?

[Jim Groovester]

Quit being an idiot.

Did you or did you not sign up for this game, and were you not aware of the time commitment involved? I don't care if you've lost interest. Play the fucking game. You owe it to everybody else.

[Heliman]

I lost interest.  To be honest, I really don't appreciate that post, you're trying to make me feel bad for allowing someone else to take my place because I'm not having fun anymore?

You're god damn right I'm trying to make you feel bad! We have three people missing already, do you really think we'll be able to find room for a fourth easily?

[Toaster]

Super:  You getting replaced will hurt the interest of others.  Yes, it's a long D1.  You don't have to pore over every detail for three walls of text a day; a post a day with content is fine if the day is protracted.

What did you mean by IC replacement?

It seems you'd like me to stay, is it because I'm the one that the scum wants to get lynched?

Are you trying to make an attack here?  If so, fine, but it's not clear at all.