Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Poltifar]

How many manufacturing slots do you have? That's the main concern in choosing how many arrays we need, if you intend to have them all active at the same time.

Also, I am making a lot of T2 blueprints, but I am going to see first if I can manage manufacturing them myself. Otherwise I'll possibly sell you some.

[ScriptWolf]

i can run about 7 at a time but eh i most likely wont use them all maybe....

ahh ok then cool thanks

[Aavak]

Be aware that those are equipment arrays, I believe we'd be wanting other types for ScriptWolf if they intend to get into ship manufacture.

However, if we're going to be looking at covering some of the cost of fuel ourselves, we really should look at Amarr towers because of the fact the ice in Ordion will supply the right isotopes to create fuel blocks. If we do that, I'm happy to use my blueprints and one of the manufacture slots at the PoS to manufacture the fuel from any ice and PI materials we have. Likewise, I think we should be fine as far as Charters go, once we set up the tower I'll sink a couple of thousand LPs into buying us a stock of charters so we have breathing room to work out any further details, but in general it'll be easy to cover the charter costs with even L3's, much less L4's.

Regarding small versus medium PoS, although it is possible to offline and unanchor the labs/factories this may have negative effects on any jobs running in them. I'm not fully aware of how it works at present, it changes from time to time and it was a while ago that I last lived in a PoS. I believe research jobs may simply get paused if a Lab goes offline, and fully cancelled if it gets unanchored (the blueprint gets returned to the corp hangar, if I'm not mistaken) so any progress would be lost. But as far as manufacture, I believe the materials get lost, or part of them, which could really add up if it's a ship being built, or a T2 anything.

Therefore, I would recommend we not build the PoS around the idea of being able to just turn off the labs/assembly arrays and ship them away if something happens, or else the people running jobs in them may end up losing money. Instead, I would like to propose that we build enough defences around the PoS to be a reasonable deterrent from anyone bothering to attack it in the first place, but have even more guns and hardeners in reserve should a war be declared. That way, it's the best of both worlds. We don't have an entirely unarmed PoS sitting there with delicious looking expensive labs enticing an attack, but instead have a modest defence, enough to dissuade anyone who's just looking for either easy pickings, or to troll us (by forcing us to stop/start/stop/start our labs work due to the threat of war) but still prioritise industrial activities under normal operation. With the really big guns and banks of EWAR in reserve, ready should we get attacked by someone a bit more committed to causing trouble.

Also, given that we're talking about planning our setup around an emergency 'oh shit, ship everything back to base, pronto' plan, how many people here have Anchoring skills to be able to pull the things down or set up guns in a reasonable amount of time? Additionally, how many people have the skills necessary to actively take control of PoS defence turrets?

[Poltifar]

It seems like the best idea is a medium POS then. At 6 million fuel cost per day, though, we're going to need an actual funding plan of some sort. We can't just leave it be and hope enough taxes come in. Possibly a payment per slot being used, per day? Or something of that sort...

As for anchoring, I have the anchoring skill injected, so I guess I could train it to high enough to be able to unanchor stuff in an emergency.

[Comp112]

I have anchoring trained, and am just one level from being able to anchor/unachor most stuff. I can train whatever is needed.

I am fine with a medium POS, please message me ingame if you want me to buy my own advanced lab though, so I can get my butt to a trade hub and pick it up.

[Tyg13]

I've been meaning to get into industry/research as well, but haven't got the skills to do so yet. It's very unprofitable in the early stages, and I know in some cases it can even be negative profit compared to what you would get selling the raw ore. So I'd definitely be interested in using the PoS, I'd be willing to pay some form of rent/dues as well.

[LordBucket]

Relevant information:

 * The research labs being discussed cost in the range of 75 - 120 million each. Those of you casually talking about anchoring "3 basic labs and 3 advanced labs" need to realize that you're talking about well over half a billion worth of labs above and beyond the control tower costs.
 * Labs have a finite amount of slots available. For example, a standard mobile laboratory has only 1 copy slot, 1 material effciciency research slot, 3 production efficiency slots, and 5 invention slots. This could become inconvenient, if for example...three people pitch in 25 million for a lab but they all want to copy blueprints and there's only one slot for that.
 * There is a unique mobile lab rewarded during the Caldari epic arc missions
 * To operate station guns requires at least Anchoring 5 and Starbase Defense Mangement 1. "Having anchoring skill" is about 2-3 weeks away from being able to operate guns.
 * People not in Armok (Kaye, Alisa, Anja, etc) will be unable to online/offline station modules or operate guns even if they have the required skills.
 * The only incentive to choose an Amarr tower is that Mostyn has a manufacturing blueprint for Amarr fuel blocks that has already had efficiency research applied to it. Fuel block blueprints are only about a million ISK, and a raw blueprint could then have its efficiency researched as needed. It takes 5 days to research perfect material efficiency for a fuel block.
 * Even with a perfect blueprint, mining ice and manufacturing fuel blocks might or might not be more time-efficient than simply buying them. For example, if it takes 10 hours of ice-mining a week to supply materials...an activity that probably only  very few of us are even capable of doing due to skill and ship requirements, plus manufacturing slot time to convert the materials into fuel blocks...and if it only takes 6 hours of mission running to generate enough ISK to simply buy them...an activity that anyone can do regardless of ice mining skill and ship ability...then it doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense to manufacture the fuel blocks. The numbers used here are completely made up. I don't know what the actual time requirements will be. I suggest somebody find out.
 * Even if ice mining is inefficient, it may be possible to buy or acquire from planets the materials to manufacture fuel blocks. This might or might not be more time efficient than simply buying them.

[Aavak]

Actually, I have all fuel blocks, all researched The reason I was suggestion an Amarr tower is the proximity of an ice belt that could be used to produce Amarr fuel blocks, but if we just buy in the ice materials, we can manufacture any fuel block, we just wont be able to produce them entirely from our own mined materials. The only different this will really make, is a bit of extra cost, and some hauling.

However, if it is possible for us to mine for our own materials, and a few people are willing to donate PI materials then we might be able to run the PoS with a bare minimum of hauling, market operations, and a corp mining event or two a month. Again though, all this would really save is a bit of money and time.

[Aavak]

After the corp running with a 10% tax rate for one week (based on the period of 10 AM on the 3rd to 10 AM today) the corp made 15,701,306 from taxes. I did not include player donations, however it looks like one of the corp members has run some Incursions, and alone rose 12,577,944 for the corp in rewards. Combined, that would bring this weeks tax to 28,279,250 ISK, though I'm not sure how reasonable it is to assume such rewards would be a common thing.

At present, the corp wallet contains 388 million ISK. Enough to get us started with pretty much any setup we want to roll with. Based on what people have said regarding what they want to use the PoS for, I doubt a large PoS is necessary, so it comes down to deciding whether everyone can run everything they want out of a Small PoS, or whether we'll need to step up to a Medium.

Finally, although some progress has been made regarding the issue of ongoing funding, we're still shy on some details. I think there seems to be some support for a system where those who make use of the PoS facilities cover the ongoing running costs, but how would we measure how much each person owes?

Overall, I think the issue of having the money to buy the tower and modules is resolved, all that remains is to settle on a method for covering the running costs and we can get this set up soon after.

[motorbitch]

i played eve for a while but stopped about a year ago. i consider starting again.
i was able to fly t3 minmatar cruisers and mining barges. my timezone is UTC +1
however, i do remember im pretty broke, isk whise and ship whise. im sure i do have enough stuff to start missioning or mining again, but i would not be able to donate any relevant sum to get a pos running for now.

[forsaken1111]

We could just take it slow. Set up a small with as many labs and such as possible, upgrading later as needed.

[Tyg13]

After the corp running with a 10% tax rate for one week (based on the period of 10 AM on the 3rd to 10 AM today) the corp made 15,701,306 from taxes. I did not include player donations, however it looks like one of the corp members has run some Incursions, and alone rose 12,577,944 for the corp in rewards. Combined, that would bring this weeks tax to 28,279,250 ISK, though I'm not sure how reasonable it is to assume such rewards would be a common thing.

At present, the corp wallet contains 388 million ISK. Enough to get us started with pretty much any setup we want to roll with. Based on what people have said regarding what they want to use the PoS for, I doubt a large PoS is necessary, so it comes down to deciding whether everyone can run everything they want out of a Small PoS, or whether we'll need to step up to a Medium.

Finally, although some progress has been made regarding the issue of ongoing funding, we're still shy on some details. I think there seems to be some support for a system where those who make use of the PoS facilities cover the ongoing running costs, but how would we measure how much each person owes?

Overall, I think the issue of having the money to buy the tower and modules is resolved, all that remains is to settle on a method for covering the running costs and we can get this set up soon after.

Well, I'm assuming we could set up a system similar to how stations run it, no? Or is there no function that allows a PoS to charge for the usage of it's slots? I suppose at the very least we could have someone send out a corp-wide email whenever they queued the PoS saying how long they're using it for or something, and then transfer the isk over to the corp wallet. I think we can trust people in the corp to pay their dues.

As for the ongoing costs, I know Rince (the one running incursions) was saying that he planned on running incursions consistently every week, so we should be able to count on that. We could also charge a % in minerals when people use the refining services/ask you to refine. What's the average cost of fuel blocks for a week? Isn't it somewhere in the 20-30 million range?

At the very least, I know I can probably donate 10 mil a week consistently. I make that much in about an hour or two mining, so it shouldn't be any trouble to give that much up to the corp.

[LordBucket]

We could just take it slow. Set up a small with as many labs and such as possible, upgrading later as needed.

It's not that simple. For example, if we go with an Amarr small tower, it is only capable of accommodating two labs, whereas a Caldari small is able to accomodate 3. If we insist on going Amarr but need more than two labs then we have to upgrade to a medium, which is able to at most accommodate 5. But if we only need three, we could get a caldari or Gallente small and have three while only paying 3 million ISK/day compared to the 6 million ISK/day we'll pay if we go medium.

And for reasons described earlier relating to standings and the need to boot everyone from the corp with faction standings below 5 every time we anchor a tower, upgrading towers later is non-trivial and something we'd probably rather avoid.

What's the average cost of fuel blocks for a week?

For the Too Long; Didn't Read version, skip to "examples" below.


Daily costs (ballpark, subject to variations by market conditions and which racial control tower we choose)

Small control tower: 3 million ISK/day, 21 million ISK/week
Medium control tower: 6 miliion ISK/day, 42 million ISK/week
Large Control tower: 12 million ISK/day, 84 million ISK/week

CPU resources for control towers: (Powergrid will not be a limiting factor for a lab-heavy PoS design)

Small Amarr:   1375
Small Caldari:   1875
Small Gallente:   1688
Small Minmtar:    1500

Medium Amarr:   2750
Medium Caldari:   3750
Medium Gallente:3375
Medium Minmtar:   3000


Labs CPU costs:
 * Standard Mobile Laboratory: 500 CPU
 * Advanced Mobile Laboratory: 600 CPU
 * Experimental Mobile Laboratory: 500 CPU (For T3 research)
 * Hyasoda Mobile Labortory: 600 CPU   (The one you get from the epic arc missions)

Lab Facilities by type:
Mobile Laboratory
 * 1 copy slot (0.75 job time bonus)
 * 3 ME slots (0.75 job time bonus)
 * 3 PE slots (0.75 job time bonus)
 * 5 Invention slots (0.5 job time bonus)

Advanced Mobile Laboratory
 * 3 copy slots (0.65 job time bonus)
 * 2 ME slots (0.75 job time bonus)
 * 2 Invention slots (0.5 job time bonus)

Hyasoda Mobile Laboratory
 * 4 ME slots (0.75 job time bonus)
 * 4 PE slots (0.75 job time bonus)
 * 6 Invention slots (0.5 job time bonus)

Experimental Laboratory
 * 3 Reverse Engineering slots (1.0 job time bonus)

Defense CPU costs:
 * Shield Hardener: 250 CPU
 * ECM: 50 CPU
 * Energy Neutralizer: 25 CPU
 * Webifier: 25 CPU
 * Warp scrambler 25 or 50 CPU
 * Guns (Free. No CPU cost, they take powergrid instead. Complicated, but basically not relevant to this part of the decision)


Examples

The "Cheapest option that's probably still sufficient for our needs" solution:
 * Caldari Small tower
 * 2 basic labs, 1 advanced lab, 4 ECM, 4 Energy Neuts, 2 web, 1 warp scrambler
 * Slots: 5 copy, 8 ME, 6 PE, 12 invention
 * Fuel costs: 3 million ISK/day

The "We want to make our own fuel, but need more than the cheap option" solution:
 * Amarr Medium Tower
 * 2 basic labs, 2 advanced labs, 8 ECM, 1 shield hardener, 2 nuets, 1 web, 1 warp scrambler
 * Slots: 8 copy, 10 ME, 6 PE, 14 invention
 * Fuel costs: 6 million ISK/day (even if we make it ourselves, whatever we make and use is stuff we're not selling, so opportunity cost is similar)

If anyone wants to play with specifics, there's a PoS planner applet here:

http://eve.1019.net/pos/

[tryrar]

[random drive-by thread comment] Don't forget someone mentioned wanting to do manufacturing as well[/random drive-by thread comment]

[Burnt Pies]

If anyone wants a Hyasyoda (or whatever it's called) Lab, we could try forming a small fleet to do the Caldari epic arc. I've been meaning to try one of the empire arcs for ages, just haven't got round to it yet, and I'd definitely sign up for something like that.

Assuming they don't require you to go into Minnie/Gallente space. FW means I'm kinda kill-on-sight over there.