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[Aavak]

Okay, after some rooting around in logs and checking permissions, I've drawn up a short list of who had access. There are 15 of us (including myself), and of those 15, some haven't been logged in since last week, or even last month.

So, assuming that this was done within the last week, here's the list of people who had access to the containers, and have been online in this time:

Zajarin
Wulf
Tenhrwppe
Spraypaint
Slu
Pierre
Mostyn
Lasik
Erisu
Dubavi
Dingus

There are two options to find out who took them, one: whoever took them, just say so, give it back, and then everyone can discuss how we deal with it. Or two, we have to dig around and actually figure it out; this is much more work and is a pain, and will put people in a far less forgiving mood

Along the lines of two, if anyone has any info, specific numbers of ore, or a specific time it was taken, do let me know, as if nothing else it'll help me further narrow down the short list.

It's shitty that this sort of thing has happened, but par for the course with Eve lol. On this note though, there are some ways we can ensure this sort of thing doesn't happen again.

One of the easiest would be for us to agree on a corp password for those containers, and set it so all items are 'locked' when they're put in them. So that to take anything out, you'd have to specifically unlock it (with the password we all know), which would leave a paper trail. That way, there's just one password for anyone to remember, it's more a formality than an actual security system, but would allow us to know who's been manipulating the contents of the containers.

[Aavak]

Well, that was nice and quick. The person who took the ore has contacted me to explain what happened, and has dumped all the money they had into the corp wallet so I can reimburse those who've lost out.

I realise it's going to be complicated to give everyone back exactly what they lost, so I'd ask for some patience as I get this all worked out. But could those who know they lost ore please let me know how much they think it was worth.

As for the person responsible, they explain how it all happened in an Eve mail. I had been discussing with the others earlier in chat on what we'd do if we figured out who had taken the ore, and at the time I said that I don't think the choice should sit with one person (namely the CEO, that is, me) about kicking someone from the corp, it effects everyone and so everyone should have a say. So, the same is true of whether to allow someone to stay. This is something I think we all agreed would be a core part of this corp, that it's not run hard and fast, like a business, but it's more relaxed and run by everyone, and things like this should be decided by a 'trial by peers' sort of thing.

So, to cut to the chase, here's a copy of the Eve-mail:

From: Lasik en Chalune
Sent: 2013.03.15 21:16
To: Mostyn Iorik, 

Hey, Mostyn I'd just like to tell you that it was me who took the ore. I'm sorry for deceiving you and I fully understand if you kick me out of the corp. You should definitely strip me of all power, I can't be trusted with these sorts of things.

I transferred all the money in my wallet (115,187,283 ISK) so you can reimburse all those who lost money. If there's any more that needs to be replaced, I'll make efforts to replace it.

I didn't mean for it to come to this. I lost my Myrm the other day, costing me 80m. It cost me everything I had to buy that myrmidon, and I was left with 2m in my account. I didn't want to steal a bunch of money, and Erisu hadn't logged in in weeks, so I took the ore and sold it. I figured I could replace the ore in time.

Then I lost my retriever stupidly. Once again, my mistake of logging in and mining without launching my drones and getting blown up. You can see if you check my API that I then went and sold more ore so that I could afford a retriever. So I could mine more and pay you back.

I know, I should have asked for a loan or something from someone, but given how everyone was trying to raise money for the PoS, I didn't think anyone had the funds to spare. I feel incredibly guilty about this, and you should probably vote on whether I get kicked or not.

It pains me, because I really liked the camaraderie of this corp, and being able to do missions with everyone, and then I had to go and fuck up everything because of my own greed and idiocy.

But the corp's will is the corp's will.

Sorry for everything,

Lasik en Chalune

And, in the interests of transparency, here's a copy of the chat log that went down on the B12 channel shortly after I received that:

[...]
[21:31:32] Lasik en Chalune > or not, my ride appears to be late
[21:31:44] Rince Aumer > yay, stay with us
[21:34:02] Mostyn Iorik > Hey Lasik
[21:34:07] Mostyn Iorik > Got the mail, thanks
[21:34:18] Mostyn Iorik > (Was afk when you asked a few moments ago, needed to get some foods)
[21:34:34] Lasik en Chalune > you might not be so amicable with me after you read it
[21:34:41] Mostyn Iorik > I did already.
[21:35:13] Mostyn Iorik > I found the story quite amusing, in a "ARGH, it got me... right in the feels" sort of way.
[21:35:30] Mostyn Iorik > Kept thinking of Pippin and Merry in LotR, after Pip had to be spirited away.
[21:35:39] Lasik en Chalune > Yeah :/
[21:35:46] Rince Aumer > /emote curious
[21:35:49] Lasik en Chalune > I really shouldn't have gone about this the way I did
[21:36:07] Lasik en Chalune > all will be revealed in the times to come, my child
[21:36:22] Mostyn Iorik > I'll leave it to Lasik to chat about it, I'll be posting the mail later though.
[21:36:22] Lasik en Chalune > it is only a matter of having the patience to wait
[21:36:35] Lasik en Chalune > that's fair
[21:36:44] Mostyn Iorik > Simply because I think it's probably the best way to explain it all, I could add nothing more or do a better job.
[21:37:02] Mostyn Iorik > And much as I said earlier that things weren't up to me alone, that it was up to everyone, the same goes in reverse.
[21:37:16] Lasik en Chalune > I anticipate having to leave the corp, which hurts, but I fucked up and I have to own up to it
[21:37:29] Mostyn Iorik > (that is, I wont make the decision to kick anyone, likewise, I wont make the decision to keep them.)
[21:37:43] Argoms > Wait what
[21:37:59] Argoms > I just got back to some very vague and unsettling messages of the conspirator leading to a kick in the balls
[21:38:12] Mostyn Iorik > I do wish you'd have simply asked dude. I can see why you did it... and I do believe you had every intention of putting things back... but honeslty, the mail read like someone's account of a losing streak in Vegas.
[21:38:39] Argoms > Okay this sounds awesome
[21:38:40] Zajarin > If I'm no longer a suspect, I advocate leniency.
[21:38:42] Mostyn Iorik > "I lost my money on this bad bet, but, I knew I could make it back... so I stole my girlfriends wallet. It's okay, I was going to pay her pack everything I used, it'd all be fine. She'd enver even know"
[21:39:00] Mostyn Iorik > "Then i lost her money.... SO I stole my father's car, and pawned it... don't worry, I'll buy it back, I just need one good win."
[21:39:02] Mostyn Iorik > Etc, etc.
[21:39:23] Mostyn Iorik > These things always end in tragedy, sometimes comically, but usually not. But I do always feel for the person in the situation, it's a horrible place to be.
[21:39:29] Argoms > Did lasik go to the bathroom while gambling
[...]
[21:42:16] Lasik en Chalune > so basically, because I'm a fucking idiot who doesn't know how to handle ships, I sold a bunch of the corp's ore. I didn't think Erisu would come back before it replaced, considering he'd been gone for a week since
[21:42:25] Lasik en Chalune > just getting that out in the open I suppose
[21:42:44] Zajarin > You really could've asked for a loan.
[21:42:45] Lasik en Chalune > I wish you were mad at me at least, then I wouldn't feel so guilty inside
[21:42:53] Lasik en Chalune > I put 115m back into the corp wallet
[21:42:54] Mostyn Iorik > Best out in the open, honestly. Things can seem much bigger, and more horrific when they're shrouded in shadows.
[21:42:56] Zajarin > Wasn't my ore.
[21:42:57] Rince Aumer > [21:42:43] Zajarin > You really could've asked for a loan.
yeah. that
[21:43:18] Urist Oresmith > Or you could've murdered anja
[21:43:26] Urist Oresmith > Just putting that out there.
[21:43:26] Lasik en Chalune > that would've been a huge bounty
[21:43:30] Lasik en Chalune > yeah
[21:43:53] Mostyn Iorik > Yeah, no point saying it now, but should things get smoothed over and something like this happen again, you could just ask. Hell, Rince and I could easily buy your ships back outright and it barely even make a dent in our wallets.
[21:43:54] Rince Aumer > bounty payout is based on ship value, thoigh
[21:44:09] Mostyn Iorik > I know you didn't want to ask because people were stressing over the PoS, but...

So, there we go. All out in the open, and with that, I'd like people to speak up about how we deal with this. I've already removed Lasik's Director privileges, and I honestly don't imagine them being returned, but regarding whether we ask them to leave the corp, or accept that sometimes bad situations occur and people in those situations may make bad choices, and leave it at that, or anything in between, please let me know what you feel. It's a fairly important issue, and will set a precedent, so do contribute if you can.

I'll leave you with this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S610iFLodYo

ARGH... right in the feels...

[ScriptWolf]

to be honest after reading that i don't feel like bringing out the torch and pitchforks. he was really in need and he was going to try and replace it i say no harm done really. But next time he is in need of some help he ask us! i would have gladly helped out as well

[Poltifar]

I'm not really angry at Lasik, but I think we should go with the password idea to prevent these kinds of things from happening again.

[dragonshardz]

that as well, but Cern refines stuff on request and then he is gonna need access then, I dont really use corp hanger unless I'm giving stuff for everyone.

While you are right there has to still be trust is people are storing stuff there to be tidy ect....

You can contract ores to Cern when you want him to refine stuff. Private item exchange contracts - without needing to actually exchange items from the recipient - are completely possible.

[sluissa]

I'll throw in another vote for leniency, but of course I didn't have anything taken. It was wrong, but honesty and an attempt to make things right goes a long way in my book.

[Man of Paper]

I'd say there should be a temporary removal of power or something minor. While I do appreciate the honesty (and let's face it, better we deal with this kind of situation now than have one that's malicious down the road), I think something like this needs a slap on the wrist. We love ya Lasik, and I'm sure you learned your lesson (that is, don't kobold the company's stuff). And now you know people are willing to loan you some cash moneys if you're in need!

[ScriptWolf]

i think we discussed there was going to be a corp wide vote on the outcome.

[Fikes]

The HFS wallet has been emptied to ARMOK and as far as I can tell, it is the only thing the company "owned".

I am not any any hurry to pass of the CEOness, but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to get into ARMOK so I can be taxed.

In other news, I am hoping to help people run level 3 or 2 missions around Ordion this weekend. Hopefully we can get people into battle cruisers so they can, in turn, start helping me run level 4s.

[Rince Wind]

I'll tell you the shocking truth:
ATM there is no tax in ARMOK.

[Comp112]

Daw, I never would have figured Lasik for this. I like him id vote for leniency. But permanent removal of powers, not temporary.

On another note, any news on the PoS?

[Not good with names]

Well, no harm done I guess.  I believe I had about 2 million isk worth of Kernite and Scordite in my bin, but I can wait on that that until the people with tons of ores are recompensed.  I hadn't realized I had to request refinement though, so I kinda just left them in there hoping they'd eventually get done  .

About the POS, I don't really have much interest in it I guess. It wouldn't do much for me (I'm primarily mission running).  To be honest, I don't know if it'd really be all that tempting to contribute towards one unless it adds something to gameplay, which from the sounds of things, in Hi-sec it really doesn't give me anything that I can't get anywhere else.

[ductape]

remember, POS stands for Piece Of Shit (sorry for language but I think thats OK here). Its just a digital ball and chain, forcing you to log in and feed it.

Eve is a great game, but the addictive challenge for most of it is to figure things out and get them working. Once you have it all figured out and set up, it's a clicky chore and the honeymoon is over. I will say that PVP action is pretty fun though and plays differently than the rest of the game in a lot of ways.

I speak from experience, been playing since 2006 with 2 accounts (one combat and the other industry) and I have done pretty much everything at one time or another. I cant say I didnt have fun figuring it all out and setting it up though, so theres that.

[LordBucket]

1) Lady Kaye here.

2) Even though I'm in the chat room for hours every day and participate in corp fleet ops, I, like Anja and a few others, am not actually a member of Magma Forge. Ultimately this is not my problem, and I offer the following opinion solely as independent third party counsel.

3) In my opinion, boot Lasik. Lasik? I'm sure you're reading this. Thank you for coming clean and acknowledging what you did. Thank you for having the integrity to own your actions and seek to make them right. We're all part of team humanity here on earth, and sometimes the journey isn't easy. I don't want to encourage angst or anger, or make anybody's life more difficult...but like Mostyn says, what happens here sets a precedent. If I were in Magma Forge, and if I were casting a vote, I would vote to set the precedent that people who do what you did be booted.

4) All drama aside, this was completely preventable. You guys need to configure station containers and corporate divisions and hangar access levels. Whoever set this up did it badly, and I suggest you read up how how these things work.

here's the list of people who had access to the containers, and have been online in this time:

Zajarin
Wulf
Tenhrwppe
Spraypaint
Slu
Pierre
Mostyn
Lasik
Erisu
Dubavi
Dingus

There's no excuse for that. The people who needed access were:

1) The director
2) The guy who was refining ore

That's it. Nobody else. And in this case, both 1 and 2 were the same person. Even the person putting ore into the containers does not need to have access to the containers.

They only show what's put into them, not what's taken out, if the wiki is to be believed.

That is technically/literally correct but misleading. They simply need to be configured properly and you can get results that close enough to what you probably want. I'll go set it up on one my own personal containers right now. Here's a screenshot:



All I did was configure the container to lock items by default when they're put in. No password required at all. Then, when I put the Radio S crystal into it, it was automatically locked and creates a log entry of that. At that point the item cannot be removed...even by the CEO of the corp...unless it's unlocked. And when I unlocked it, another log entry was created showing the unlock. True...it doesn't log specifically an item being removed, like the wiki says...but if an item is unlocked...and then isn't there anymore, it's pretty obvious that it was removed.

There are a number of ways that divisions and hangar access can be set up. Magma Forge is pretty small and only has half a dozen miners. You could create individual divisions and unique titles for each individual miner if you really wanted to. But it doesn't even need to be that complicated. The simplest way to do this is to simply lock containers, put them in a division in which only the singular Director (not DirectorS) of the corp and the Mining Officer singular (not officerS) have access. Then configure individual containers to lock items when put in. Anyone will then be able to put ore in the container, and when they do it will be logged. Periodically, and/or upon request the mining officer then refines ore from individual containers and puts it directly into the personal station of the owner.

[ScriptWolf]

I think the point is why should we have to set everything up so we track every member like big brother? We're more like a community in the corp than a business and we should be able to trust each over enough just to leave stuff around the place and not have to worry that it's going to be stolen. There is also under 30 of us ! So it's not like we are a huge corp.

If someone asked me they needed help with cash then I would help them out and so would a lot of other members as stated, If people just state they are in need then there is no problem.

It worked fine up till now, and even when it happened its not like he was trying to screw us over out of a lot of isk

@Lordbucket But I do also agree with what you are saying In some points even just as a precaution we should be locking down containers.

But it should not get to the stage of someone takes something and there is a huge investigation ect...

I do put a lot of stuff into the corp hangers just for everyone to use