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[Zrk2]

Well, as far as I know, I'm just anti-social, not autistic. The only person I lknow with Aspergers is just a little 'odd' he can be more of a jerk than most people, but that could be from the environment he grew up on. We were in the 'gifted' class and so we all spent every class together for grades 4-8 and for most of grades 9 and 10. In that period we became as a whole more cynical and assholey. So, he seems just like everyone else from the class, only a bit moreso.

[Darvi]

Well, as far as I know, I'm just anti-social, not autistic.

This. I don't know even any aspies.


But then again, I wasn't good with people even before I became antisocial, so I dunno.

[Simmura McCrea]

One of my cousins has Aspergers. I didn't even know until I was told.

[G-Flex]

I hate to be the one to say this, but:

Aspergers Syndrome is not autism.

It's an autism spectrum disorder; it has syndromes in common with autism, but calling aspergers "autism" is extremely misleading, and trivializes how horrible autism itself is.


This is not to trivialize aspergers, but there needs to be a distinction made here between autism and something that exists on the borderline between autism and normal human function. Autism is normally extremely debilitating, whereas aspergers is... well, incredibly variable, but not anywhere near as severe.

[Vector]

By the way, there's been debates over whether HFA and AS should be merged, because ultimately the results tend to be just about the same.

I think the distinction you're trying to make is between LFA and HFA--and you're right that it's a very, very big one.  One of the reasons why I'm antsy about even considering having children.

[G-Flex]

"High-functioning autism" isn't a diagnostic classification in the DSM-IV, I don't think; it's more informal.

I don't mean to come off as hostile or anything; I just think it trivializes autism to conflate it with something like aspergers. To have aspergers, be capable of functioning mostly normally, and then talk about how your "autistic life" seems extremely disingenuous to me in the face of what even some relatively well-functioning autistic people have to go through in their daily lives.

To be fair, I have no idea how well-functioning "high-functioning autistics" tend to be, but I still think it's incredibly unfair to lump everything together like this, especially things that are not even diagnostically considered to be autism, and which are commonly overdiagnosed.

[Vector]

No, of course.  I'm not feeling any hostility from you at all--just trying to give you what I know, having researched these things fairly extensively.

You're correct about HFA not being a diagnostic classification in the DSM-IV.  My apologies.  I believe I meant that the definition was going to be restructured more according to current symptoms than to patient history.

The truth is, though, that the only significant difference between autism and AS in the DSM-iv is... well, it's basically whether or not you speak on time or not.  There's some things about spinning objects, patterns, and so on, but those commonly intersect with AS, in addition to a large number of other symptoms not even mentioned.

I will agree, of course, that low-functioning autism is beyond horrifying, and an entirely different beast.

However, high-functioning autism and Asperger's are qualitatively the same thing in the end-game.  A wide spectrum that means a lot of things.  I say this knowing that one of my acquaintances was diagnosed with PDD-NOS, AS, and HFA by different people in a similar period of her life--and these are all mutually exclusive diagnoses, dude.  The edge is extremely blurry.  She's a very compassionate and gentle person with some sensory issues and a weird sense of humor, and successfully attending college.  She also has a neurotypical boyfriend.  Sure, you'd meet her and go "there's something bizarre about this person," but that's true for many of the non-autistic people I know as well.

Furthermore, they are both titled as part of the "autistic spectrum," or perhaps the "pervasive developmental disorders."  So, yes, Asperger's is, in a sense, "part of autism."


The other thing I'm going to say is that whatever I was dealing with fucking sucked.  I don't know what you want to call it, and I don't care--but it wasn't just some sort of "Oh, yeah, I didn't notice so it must not be much of a problem" thing.  It was something I fought with and tried to hide, day after day, year after year, and which nearly destroyed me.  It earned me reams of emotional, physical, and (mild) sexual abuse.  I still have to constantly ask myself how someone else would perceive my words and remind myself to read situations, to make eye contact, and so on.  Just because it's easier now doesn't mean it was never there.

I don't mean to accuse you of trivializing my troubles, or those of anyone else, but one of the reasons why I don't tell anyone about this in real life is the "you're saying this, and therefore you must be some emo self-diagnosed dork" reaction.

Of course, your action here should also help the remove the other reaction--that being "you must be an emotionally fragile idiot with absolutely no social skills who thinks of me about as casually as you do my desk."  So thank you, for the very least, for that.


Bah, I think I may be being unclear here.  I'll say this:

I agree that the thread title may be regrettably ambiguous and disingenuous, but there's a lot of complexity and political issues below the surface which complicates the issue substantially.

[G-Flex]

The truth is, though, that the only significant difference between autism and AS in the DSM-iv is... well, it's basically whether or not you speak on time or not.  There's some things about spinning objects, patterns, and so on, but those commonly intersect with AS, in addition to a large number of other symptoms not even mentioned.

To be specific, the differences seem to be:

• Autism requires significant qualitative impairment of language (I judge "qualitative" here to mean that it's not simply, say, slow development), whereas aspergers lacks that category.
• Autism requires "delay or abnormal functioning" in one of a few other things, with onset by 3 years of age.

Of course, these are only the de juro criteria; public (and professional) trends in diagnosing also play a role.

However, high-functioning autism and Asperger's are qualitatively the same thing in the end-game.  A wide spectrum that means a lot of things.  I say this knowing that one of my acquaintances was diagnosed with PDD-NOS, AS, and HFA by different people in a similar period of her life--and these are all mutually exclusive diagnoses, dude.  The edge is extremely blurry.  She's a very compassionate and gentle person with some sensory issues and a weird sense of humor, and successfully attending college.  She also has a neurotypical boyfriend.  Sure, you'd meet her and go "there's something bizarre about this person," but that's true for many of the non-autistic people I know as well.

I agree, and the blurriness of that line is one reason why ASD/Aspergers doesn't really sit well with me, sort of like ADHD; it's far too easy for strange but functional people (or people with problems that are subclinical, i.e. everyone) to get diagnosed with them if it seems like they fit the bill. That's one big problem here; modern psychiatry is (in my opinion) way, way too much about quick diagnoses and prescriptions. I could go to my general practitioner right now, who is not a mental health professional and knows little about me, and walk out with powerful psychoactive medications. Or, I could see a psychiatrist and present myself any number of ways, and walk out with a similar prescription (and possibly even a diagnosis!) after talking to the guy, who I've never met before, for an hour, without any intention to trick or deceive him.

Furthermore, they are both titled as part of the "autistic spectrum," or perhaps the "pervasive developmental disorders."  So, yes, Asperger's is, in a sense, "part of autism."

I don't really consider "autistic spectrum" to be the same as "autism". If it were, then "autism" would be called something more specific than "autism". "Autistic spectrum" specifically refers to things that are along similar lines as autism but not as severe or handicapping.


The problem I see lately is that a lot of people pushing for "autism awareness" talk largely about aspergers, especially when referring to themselves. It really bugs me that people feel a need to conflate a disorder (especially one they have) with one that is generally much worse, in the name of some sort of social movement. I mean, people will also fudge statistics, saying "X% of people are diagnosed with autism" while including aspergers diagnoses in that statistic. It's disingenuous, for one, and I also consider it impractical, because in the long-term, getting the public to be more aware of autism will be troubled if you create a situation where they don't understand the difference between autism and aspergers, and thereby either trivialize the former or have a warped perception of the latter. This is partly an issue of short-term vs. long-term gain; you can increase awareness in the short term at the expense of proper public understanding in the long term. Something like that happened with the gay rights movement; for a very long time, the typical line was that being gay is biological, and not a choice, therefore it cannot be "wrong". This helped in the short term, but shot them in the foot in the long term, because it doesn't address whether or not choosing to be homosexual would be "wrong", plus it has played a role in leading people to think there's some kind of "gay gene" or other simple biological determinant that could be ethically manipulated out of people or tested for, and they all have to backpedal and start over once anyone brings up the idea that sexual orientation isn't that simple and is a confluence of many, many factors. Just to bring up an unrelated example.

I don't mean to accuse you of trivializing my troubles, or those of anyone else, but one of the reasons why I don't tell anyone about this in real life is the "you're saying this, and therefore you must be some emo self-diagnosed dork" reaction.

Of course, your action here should also help the remove the other reaction--that being "you must be an emotionally fragile idiot with absolutely no social skills who thinks of me about as casually as you do my desk."  So thank you, for the very least, for that.

Part of the problem here is that there are self-diagnosed dorks, as well as the fact that an aspergers diagnosis doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot, it being easy to get. These cause people to trivialize the syndrome more in their heads, especially when you've got rather functional aspergers sufferers lumping themselves in with "autism" in general.

[Darvi]

Autism requires significant qualitative impairment of language (I judge "qualitative" here to mean that it's not simply, say, slow development), whereas aspergers lacks that category.

Does that include not being able to speak a single damn sentence without screwing up somehow?

[G-Flex]

A lot of things could cause that. For instance, I don't think someone with a bad stutter would qualify.

[ChairmanPoo]

IIRC there were more differences. Such as some tendence to make repetitive movements that the autism disorder lacked, and several others. Plus most autism sufferers were under the normal IQ range, whereas Asperger sufferers were distributted normally.

Spoiler: This was the graph from the relevant class, concerning autism IQ distribution, which I posted a while ago. I got it from the relevant .pps file, don't know the original source. Take it as you will (click to show/hide)

[G-Flex]

IIRC there were more differences. Such as some tendence to make repetitive movements that the autism disorder lacked, and several others.

Pretty sure that symptom category is there for Aspergers as well in the DSM-IV. It's mostly the language development category that's missing.

Also, imageshack is being a dick or something; I can't see your image.

[Vector]

A lot of things could cause that. For instance, I don't think someone with a bad stutter would qualify.

Yeah, it's about development of language, rather than stuttering.  I had a stutter that pretty much left me mute for a while, but I definitely wasn't in that box.


Your post has given me a better idea of the angle you're coming from.  I'll say for now that I largely agree with you, but feel that there are some finer points that should be addressed.

Basically, I worry that the separation of AS from autism in such a matter--necessary and sensible as it is--will only serve to further glamorize the former in the public eye, and thus detract further from any use it has as a diagnosis.  The way I feel, basically, is that if I'd really needed help I would have been unable to get it.  There's this gap between low-functioning autism and normal functioning where you can't get aid or material, and it's really, really hard to climb out.  The psychology industry in general doesn't know what to do with you, and one's peers tend to trivialize one's problems.  When asked "how does your thought process even work?  I don't see how you came to that conclusion," I feel I can only reply with the extremely nondescript and misleading "I think in pictures sometimes" or "I run on Linux."

Of course, it's not to say that I'd throw out a diagnosis as a catch-all, just as I'm sure many people wouldn't just mutter out their sexuality at any turn.  It's more about feeling at all safe doing it.

I'm not sure how to solve that.

IIRC there were more differences. Such as some tendence to make repetitive movements that the autism disorder lacked, and several others. Plus most autism sufferers were under the normal IQ range, whereas Asperger sufferers werent. (I believe I posted the source graph elsewhere)

True.  AS requires IQ in the normal range.  And yeah, there are a couple of symptoms that go into the diagnosis of autism, which just happen to be frequent but not necessary under the AS umbrella.  I don't think repetitive movements was one of those, however--I seem to remember something about interest in spinning objects in autism, but tends to appear in the other diagnosis.

[G-Flex]

I'm just basing my conclusions off Stuff I Found Online, since I'm not sure where the hell to look up the actual DSM-IV entry.

http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-aspergers.html
http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-autism.html

[Vector]

Hmm, I may be working off of older or misleading information, then.  My apologies.