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Author Topic: Alternative energy sources  (Read 19922 times)

Criptfeind

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Re: Alternative energy sources
« Reply #135 on: March 19, 2011, 10:59:51 pm »

Is there any actual argument here? Because it looks to me like you guys are saying basically the same thing from a different point of view.
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Nikov

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Re: Alternative energy sources
« Reply #136 on: March 19, 2011, 11:13:32 pm »

Isn't getting to that point, the point?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Alternative energy sources
« Reply #137 on: March 19, 2011, 11:42:58 pm »

Unfortunately, according to this chart, even next generation solar plants are anywhere from twice to three times as expensive to the end user as coal. Furthermore the US has something like 250 years worth of currently economically recoverable coal reserves at current consumption rates (it grows at about 1.1% annual, yet shortages will prompt less economical reserves to be tapped, so that figure is a safe bet). In 250 years time in a free market, solar power will be less expensive than coal.
Two things:
A. Solar isn't our only option. Of course, even with wind and geothermal, it won't be enough for practical replacement in our power supply. I've stated before the benefits of nuclear fission (and later fusion) as a "stepping stone" away from our ever-lowering coal and oil supply and to a fully renewable (and hopefully post-scarcity) energy market.

B. Problems from the coal supply won't begin when we rip the last piece of economically recoverable coal from Earth, it'll begin once we can't meet 100% of the demand with what supplies are left. And as long as coal is widely used, that demand is going to raise. In fifty years, what is now a 250 year supply won't be a 200 year supply, it'll be less. That's only going to get more problematic over time, as energy companies raise prices to continue profiting and growing.
 
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But this appeal to novelty, switching to new solar power because coal is old, is a simple fallacy. Economically, practically, technically, solar power isn't ready to replace coal yet. When it is, I'll get solar panel roofing. Until then, let people make decisions and allow people to choose whatever is the most economical (or moral, if they prefer) choice for them.
My grandfather spent $ 22,000 on solar panels for his rather large home, stable, and garage a few years ago. Because of the electric surplus they produced, his former electricity provider began paying him a few hundred dollars every month to take the extra for their own use. The panels already paid for themselves by this point. This kind of thing is an example of what needs to happen on a massive scale once solar's price gets more reasonable, as to make a smoother market change.

While letting people choose their own power source is fine, these coal and oil compaines aren't going to let go of their profits willingly. Rather than trying to take their profits from them, it is important that the government take steps to ensure that renewable energy replacement will be viable and desirable for everyone sooner rather than later (For example, by giving subsidies to solar engery companies, among other things.) What I'm looking for is not to make it illegal for oil and coal power to have continued use in western nations, but impossible for it to be viable for any company to offer and make money off of. Sort of like how you wouldn't be caught dead trying to sell horse-driven carrages on a large scale these days. This has the added bonus of opening up the market to developing nations who are begining to need much more oil and coal, which will be much easier to obtain without western nations consuming it anymore.
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Nikov

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Re: Alternative energy sources
« Reply #138 on: March 20, 2011, 04:58:15 am »

A. No practical disagreement. Again, I support electrical generation through any means economically viable. I don't support ruling out any economically viable means without concrete reasons to do so.

B. I don't understand this. First, "we" is not defined. Are you talking about use in the currently developed world, or use in the entire world? My figures are based on US consumption. United States coal consumption is decreasing as is coal's share of electricity generation also falls, and so your generalization does not consider current US trends but rather assumes trends that no evidence exists for. Half-electrified, semi-industrialised America in 1910 burned 12.71 quadrillion Btu's worth of coal. A century later we burn 19.76 quadrillion Btu's to generate 48% of our electrical power with fifteen times the GDP and the population tripled. That's less coal used per capita today compared to 100 years ago, and the trend is that we will continue to use less and less coal per capita as time goes on. Meanwhile the US population is expected to effectively level off in the next decade or so. In recent history, we're using less coal today than we did ten years ago, so when you assume coal demand will rise, I don't think you're considering the real long term trends. Secondly coal is not going to be widely used, in the US at least, because it will continue to trend downward as easier coal is mined and more expensive coal has to be brought up. As fuel costs increase for coal power, other sources will become more profitable. Companies, in their drive for profits, will shift to nuclear power because they can produce electricity for less. Any company attempting what you suggest, raising prices to stay profitable, will find themselves undercut by competitors who already made the switch and can provide kWh for less. So in the end, what you propose is government coercion to make a decision. I do not, however, understand why you feel making that decision can't wait until it is economically viable on the open market. For developing countries to use this resource requires it to still be mined and burned, so there is still pollution. You want them to be able to buy the resource from the world, and that means developed nations selling coal they mine, with the associated pollution. But the US is already a net exporter of coal, and honestly its bottleneck is a lack of port capacity on the west coast. Meanwhile we still move closer to this non-issue of running out of coal. So aside from just wanting to force the US coal industry out of business, I just can't see a reasoning for what you suggest. There is no looming crisis of running out of coal in the US. Coal consumption is declining and being overtaken by other power sources in the US. The pollution problems have largely been solved in the US. Nuclear power competes with price, and photovoltic solar cells are starting to become marketable for home or business needs. There is really no need to "ensure that renewable energy replacement will be viable and desirable for everyone sooner rather than later," especially if it means tweaking the market through subsidies and taxes. This so-called problem is manufactured at best and will sort itself out over the next few decades to half century as plants wear out and get replaced. Forcing a switch will only increase energy costs (harming everyone) unless you subsidize the alternative (requiring federal money). Coal power is still economical unless you penalize it (harming some 100,000+ workers). In the end you have a lot of negatives caused only out of impatience, running from a crisis that will never happen given current trends.

It seems to me we inherited a vast wine cellar, and after realizing the bottles will eventually run out for our grandchildren (assuming we become alcoholics and our children are worse and none of us find some more bottles in the back or just get sick of wine), decided to switch to beer.
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Ampersand

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Re: Alternative energy sources
« Reply #139 on: March 20, 2011, 05:15:43 am »

I think the point is that, while we do have a vast wine cellar, at the rate we are currently drinking that wine, we're going to end up with fatty liver before it becomes possible to switch to beer.

Or something. I'm really mixing my metaphors here.
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Nikov

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Re: Alternative energy sources
« Reply #140 on: March 20, 2011, 05:41:06 am »

I think the point is that, while we do have a vast wine cellar, at the rate we are currently drinking that wine, we're going to end up with fatty liver before it becomes possible to switch to beer.

Or something. I'm really mixing my metaphors here.

Ah, but as I have demonstrated, our current drinking rate is already declining, supplemented by bottled water. Beer would only cost more and give us beer guts. Meanwhile our overall health has been improving and our cholesterol levels are in a healthy range so there's really no...

Yeah, metaphor puree. The point is, current trends and technology say we're going to scale back domestic coal use for energy production simply because of changing economics. And I dare say China would love to buy our coal, once we get a port opened on the west cost able to handle the stuff. Shifting US coal use from domestic energy production to the export market is an excellent long term goal for us.
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Phmcw

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Re: Alternative energy sources
« Reply #141 on: March 20, 2011, 06:19:47 am »

The point is : injecting more CO2 into the atmosphere could trigger a massive catastrophe. So we want to get out of coal. (coal reserve are still massive, way more than petrol or "classical" nuclear fuel).
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Ampersand

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Re: Alternative energy sources
« Reply #142 on: March 20, 2011, 11:16:12 am »

I think the point is that, while we do have a vast wine cellar, at the rate we are currently drinking that wine, we're going to end up with fatty liver before it becomes possible to switch to beer.

Or something. I'm really mixing my metaphors here.

Ah, but as I have demonstrated, our current drinking rate is already declining...

What you have demonstrated is that the rate of consumption per capita is declining, in the United States, not that actual consumption is declining in the United States. In fact, your own numbers clearly show that the total amount of consumption is indeed growing, but at a rate slower than the expansion of population. What you neglect to take into account in all of that is improvements in efficiency between coal plants of the early and late twentieth century.

Although consumption in the United States is clearly reaching a plateau of sorts, I suspect this has more to do with the fact that the rate at which it can be mined out of the earth is the major limiting factor here.

The amount of coal produced in the United States is roughly 33,700 kilograms per second, while consumption is roughly at 32,268 kilograms per second.
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Zrk2

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Re: Alternative energy sources
« Reply #143 on: March 20, 2011, 11:57:09 am »

So, we will eventually run out of coal. Everyone agrees.
Coal causes pollution and if global warming is real (Please save that for another thread) it increases that too. Everyone agrees.
Solar and Wind power need to become more efficient to be economically viable.

Nuclear provides 0 emission energy and can be running 24/7, something wind and solar cannot do. So really, nuclear combines the best of both worlds, the only downside is that we have no longterm place to store spent fuel rods. That can be countered by constructing underground storage facilities. (Already containers for spent rods that can survive (without leaking radiation) being hit by a train exist.)
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Alternative energy sources
« Reply #144 on: March 20, 2011, 12:15:12 pm »

Of course, what would be optimal is if we could develop a method that allows reactors to function on rods untill they decay to a stable state, rather than what we do now.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
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Leafsnail

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Re: Alternative energy sources
« Reply #145 on: March 20, 2011, 02:00:00 pm »

The problem comes if the world climate is already beyond repair by the time that renewable energy becomes cheaper than coal.  Economic simplifications have a tendancy to break down when you're profiting while causing a small negative effect to everyone at once...
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Phmcw

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Re: Alternative energy sources
« Reply #146 on: March 20, 2011, 02:16:19 pm »

 I don't know about "clean coal". it sound like an oxymoron to me, but that may be because my region was called "the black land" due to coal extraction.
The region was literally black due to coal powder, and we had a lot of miners dying of silicosis. And well, global health was sure as hell harmed, too.
I just don't know if you can avoid all pollution , and I don't know if they do what is needed to avoid it.
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Nikov

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Re: Alternative energy sources
« Reply #147 on: March 20, 2011, 04:19:38 pm »

The problem comes if the world climate is already beyond repair by the time that renewable energy becomes cheaper than coal.  Economic simplifications have a tendancy to break down when you're profiting while causing a small negative effect to everyone at once...

Look, you can make appeals based on global warming all you want, but it is an appeal to the consequences of a belief, which is a fallacy. And since stopping anthropogenic CO2 to prevent global warming is pretty much what all of this boils down to, we'll be at an impasse until man-made global warming is proven or disproven to be the crisis you believe it to be.
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Phmcw

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Re: Alternative energy sources
« Reply #148 on: March 20, 2011, 04:51:02 pm »

The problem comes if the world climate is already beyond repair by the time that renewable energy becomes cheaper than coal.  Economic simplifications have a tendancy to break down when you're profiting while causing a small negative effect to everyone at once...

Look, you can make appeals based on global warming all you want, but it is an appeal to the consequences of a belief, which is a fallacy. And since stopping anthropogenic CO2 to prevent global warming is pretty much what all of this boils down to, we'll be at an impasse until man-made global warming is proven or disproven to be the crisis you believe it to be.
The best answer we can come with now is : yes, we believe it is. But we're not sure of the scope, the length, the severity, and well, we could be wrong too. Wanna try?
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Ampersand

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Re: Alternative energy sources
« Reply #149 on: March 20, 2011, 04:56:19 pm »

Regardless of whether or not there is man made global warming or not, CO2 is in fact poison, along with the other products of burning coal such as Mercury. What I can never get my mind around is how anyone can argue that dumping poison into the only air we have is OK.

Nuclear reactors are one option IF we find a way to dispose of the waste. We have only had nuclear reactors for under a century, and have not had time to run into the problems associated with the waste product.

For my part, here's where I think the future may lie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_thermal_collector

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_biofuel
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