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Author Topic: Void Destroyer - Request for feedback on my indie 3D space sim/rts  (Read 23248 times)

Stakudomer

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Re: Request for feedback on my indie 3D space sim/rts
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2011, 07:16:50 pm »

I actually really like that ship (with the side engine) and that it is asymetric because of past ships that were so symetric that I was churning out.

Quote
Also part of the reason for the asymetry is to conserve polygons,

There's nothing wrong with the asymmetry. I like the way your ships are shaped, it's just that the engine configuration on a few of them defies physics and that makes certain parts of my brain get cranky.

Have you looked at any of the ships in Eve Online? Nearly all of them are asymmetrical to some degree, but the engine arrangement is still balanced (or close enough that proving it would require lots of math). The Catalyst is a really good example:



The right side of the ship has a large engine mounted close to the center of mass. The engines on the left side are smaller, but are mounted further out so they have greater leverage. Balanced, but asymmetrical.
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creodor

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Re: Request for feedback on my indie 3D space sim/rts
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2011, 09:31:30 pm »

It's hard to figure out what to do, and the UI isn't very good (as you already pointed out). All the same, the concept is something I've been looking for ever since I first got through Freelancer the first time. Since it's pre-alpha, being hard to get is something I expected.

I'm definitely going to follow this one closely, hopefully it ends up as the game I've been hoping for.
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chaosavy

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Re: Request for feedback on my indie 3D space sim/rts
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2011, 09:51:27 pm »

Siquo: First off, thanks for giving it a shot. 2nd it looks like I didn't update the release mode tutorials (I'm guessing that the tutorial that cut off is the tactical mode one, which is the one I didn't include the most up to date version in the installer, I'm uploading an updated installer now).  Sorry about that, I should make it a rule not to upload  at 11:30PM. I'm going to drop the tutorial file into the downloads section for those that don't want to re-download the whole thing.

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The tutorials just stopped on me halfway through, I tried a game, but have no idea how to play this thing.

I'm not really sure I want to, either. I like the 4X type games of management, and I liked the XWing/Tiefighter dogfight action. I'm not sure it's a good idea to combine the two in real time. I really disliked Sins of a Solar Empires' RTS-form (and your game is looking like that thing game-wise), a spacesim is just too big and often one doesn't have the overview to make correct decisions. Or that's just me.

You've basically confirmed one of my fears that the game is pretty tough to get into, this is invaluable feedback, so I thank you again. This is the main point of releasing the project so early to avoid these situations where they could be disasterous.

There is no combat tutorial so even with the tactical tutorial there will be some gaps, the most important (basic) thing to know about combat is that the key T targets the nearest enemy and that the [ and ] keys cycle targets (all targets including friendlies) and that you can click on a object to target it in ship mode.

Interesting thoughts on the game design overall. The overview issue I'm trying to handle using the tactical mode, which gives you a 3D map and lets you see the game from any angle/positon, also you can pause the game to issue commands etc. I liked Sins of the Solar Empire, although the game didn't have much replay value for me once I beat the AI a few times as each faction (so I didnt' buy any expansions). What I didn't like that the ships weapons never missed (correct me if I'm wrong), and that once the AI's main fleet was killed it was all over.

Please give it a shot again, or keep me in mind in a month or two once there's more polish.


Siquo: Yep Eve has great ships, actually I tried to replicate some and failed. The images didn't pop up for me, but I know what you are saying. I'll keep the balance of engines in mind if/once I either partner up with an artist or outsource art.



creodo: thanks! more info about it being hard. What's interesting is that the game has had over 2k downloads and not much feedback, after I heard from one person that it is hard I created a manual (months ago), but that didn't seem to get much results, which is when I decided to make the tutorials.

Any advice towards making a better tutorial? Its hard for me since I'm so close. I have to get my wife to play through it and see what happens. Problem is she hates these types of games, going to have to use my nagging voice. Once I get the combat one up and running I'll probably post on reddit.com r/gamedev to get their feedback.
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chaosavy

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Re: Request for feedback on my indie 3D space sim/rts
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2011, 10:17:43 pm »

Nagging voice worked to get my wife to try, but not to care enough to take it seriously. Still it gave me some ideas, I need the messages to repeat if the user neglects them, they may dissapear too soon, the popup re-appearing after some time might also be useful. Most of all I need to think of ways to make the tutorials more interesting. Maybe start off with an asteroid heading for the ship and instructing the player to thrust right to get out of the way? Though this may be frustrating if the player gets pasted.
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creodor

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Re: Request for feedback on my indie 3D space sim/rts
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2011, 10:47:15 pm »

The hardest things for me were what weren't mentioned at all. For instance, the win condition as is I think is to kill off all enemies. Makes sense. The enemies, though, show up with some pretty big ships, and I can't figure out how to make them, or if it's even possible yet (I saw on the feature list that research is coming, so it may not be possible yet). Also, there seem to be neutral asteroids. Game logic tells me that I can capture those or use them somehow, but toying with them has given me no clue how.

Flying a ship is pretty straight forward, especially after so much time in Freelancer/X3. I really like that I can turn off 'smart thrusters' and it'll move more like real space. Nice feature, IMO. Most of my questions have been from the tactical/RTS mode, so far. I do however, wonder if it's possible to get more ships to follow me when I'm in single ship mode. I couldn't determine a way to do so, which led to me wondering off to attack the skull gate solo xD.

The tutorials themselves weren't bad, although having the popups come back if they're ignored for a while sounds like a good idea; a couple times I got distracted and forgot what I was actually supposed to be doing, instead of randomly shooting the other ship in the tutorial :).
I don't think I'd want the tutorial to hit me with a meteor/enemy during the 'learn to move' phase. However, during the 'learn to shoot things' phase, it'd make it more interesting.

I think I get the type of game you're shooting for, but I am curious... Which way is it focusing more, ultimately? Is it going to lean more towards being X3/Freelancer but with an actually usable method of controlling more assets? Or are you going to aim for a RTS/tactical game where you can hop in and join your fleets if you want to? I know it's still early, just wondering if you have a broad plan.
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Siquo

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Re: Request for feedback on my indie 3D space sim/rts
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2011, 04:26:56 am »

Yeah, I'm missing (or didn't see) formation flight for your ships, and options to break formation or regroup.

Estimating distance is always really hard in space games. It's really hard to get a sense of how big everything is, that's why all the big ships in star wars have windows, so you can see "ah, so that's about human sized".

I took a few fighters and corvettes and flew to the enemy "meteor" which was one big opaque dark mass. I noticed that I was already there and the fighters were only 1/4 of the way there. Nevermind! The AI is pretty dumb so you can just fire away bambam dead. And the enemy asteroid just keeps spawning more. I attacked it but there's no indication of any damage. Am I actually damaging it? I don't know!
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This one thread is mine. MIIIIINE!!! And it will remain a happy, friendly, encouraging place, whether you lot like it or not. 
will rena,eme sique to sique sxds-- siquo if sucessufil
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chaosavy

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Re: Request for feedback on my indie 3D space sim/rts
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2011, 09:24:47 am »

creodor: the win condition actually doesn't exist yet, you could destroy the enemy gate, and that would stop the spawning of the "alien" ships, but the pirate base would still create ships, it is on a timer so it would do this forever without any need for resources (eventually this would be altered allowing you to starve bases out). The lose condition is if all your ships are destroyed. The basic point right now is survival as long as possible. I haven't made it past 20 minutes, another player made it to about 30.

To build ships: press space to go into tactical mode, click on your base either on the object itself or in the "Base" list. Then click "Shipyard" then double click on the ship type (EG: Perez/Correa <-- named after some buddies of mine). The base lets you build corvettes and frigates. If you want destroyers and carriers then you have to build a shipyard, to build a shipyard -> select a base (like you did to build ships) then click "Build" then chose a Shipyard base (double click or single then click "Placeholder" or something like that). This places a little "placeholder/ghost" object to position the station. Click Return to exit out of the Build screen, then click on the ghost object to position it, then click Build to build it. Then you'd select the shipyard object, then click "Shipyard" button then build a carrier or destroyer.

The tutorial that I missed mentioned some of the above, also the combat tutorial will answer some of the other questions.

Basically in tactical mode you can mass select your ships (like you would select multiple windows files, by drawing a selection rectangle around them) or you can single select by left clicking. Once you select a ship, you can right click on another object to designate a target for that ship (or selected ships). If crew control is on then the AI takes care of the rest.

So if you want a ship to follow you, you could select it then right click your own ship to designate your ship as the leader. However this is still in rought shape.

You can colonize other bases (the grey ones which are neutral). Here's the general process: build a trading station, build a shipyard, build a transport ship (Kamola), in tactical mode click on the transport ship (transport ship gui will appear), select source to be your base, select destionation to be the base you want to colonize, seelct colony module to be the cargo, transport ship's crew (if crew control is on) will go and colonize the base. This process will be re-done, the general steps will be the same, but the gui is a bit too narrow.


Thanks for the feedback.

The "vision" as it is in my mind is something like this:

Persistent sandbox, freeform, and story based. So for example this is the rough draft of the story: civilization re-awakens to find itself in asteroid bases (it appears that they were left behind), there's competing theories how this happened, whether it was colonization or as a result of an apocalypse. The bases orbit an artificial sun that powers the bases with solar radiation. People awaken/transition from "insert story line element that I haven't figured out yet" and re-discover tech that allows them to visit other asteroid bases, contact resumes but so does conflict (the pirate base). The increased activity and some old tech triggers the aliens to arrive (their interest is the artificial sun, which is the bases's key to survival since the sun is the power source).

You find/re-capture/not sure yet an old warship which becomes your command vessel (housing the player's in game avatar). The player repairs/upgrades the warship (through out the game) and it gives him tactical abilities (shields (in one direction at a time, but impenetrable to an attack for a limited time), powerful main guns, increased speed for a limited time). This ship is the reason why you are able to control other ships at will. It will also allow you to "hack" the enemy ships (upgradable through research, at first you only get to hack smaller ships and for limited amount of time). The story line in my mind is basically something like: find your way out of the miserable existence on floating rocks (potentially using the enemy's gate). Capture/destroy enemy ships to gain their tech (lasers etc).


The game play will consists of defending your assets, colonizing other bases, researching tech, boarding other bases, boarding derelict stations to gain advanced tech. Special events: eg you attack the enemy gate and they launch a major defense fleet, or say at part of the storyline an invasion force appears (different from the regular "scheduled" attacks). The player is a warrior/philosopher/king. The lose condition will be the command ship beign destroyed (since that's where the player's avatar is housed in the game world). Pie in the sky goal down the line: first person elements where you control a mecha type avatar and take over bases with other marines.


So I guess I don't know what exact genre that would fit into. This would probably appear a year or two down the line, due to the necessity of ingame cutscenes and ways to tell the story (stuff that isn't in place yet).



Siquo: asteroid bases can't be destroyed or damaged yet.  although what will happen in the future is that when they take damage the population will either leave or be killed, if the population drops below 0 then the base isn't colonized anymore so you can't get resources or build stations/ships. Potentially down the line you could get some sort of a "death" star" laser to blow up asteroid bases or stations all together. Although this is sort of counter producitve from the player's perspective since there's not much real estate left, alien forces may not give a crap so potentially a mission to defend against a giant ship that has the ability to destroy bases. The player will send marines over to take over enemy asteroid bases (though this line of thinking I havent' explored yet, or by hitting them till the population is dead, how do you keep the game challenging and yet allow the player to impact the game world in such a way?).

Good tip on the windows as a size indicator.

Its a bit scary thinking all the stuff left to do, but also fun! I enjoy programming this stuff, and lack of ideas is basically the death of this project.
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creodor

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Re: Request for feedback on my indie 3D space sim/rts
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2011, 10:39:13 pm »

Thanks for that information, it'll help out a lot when I next fire the game up for a bit. Hopefully I can get you some more useful feedback at that point; I'd like to see this one keep going.
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breadbocks

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Re: Request for feedback on my indie 3D space sim/rts
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2011, 11:46:42 pm »

OK, this looks really sweet. Just too late at night for me to get another game.

So, brotip #1: Don't worry about the enemy AI just yet. This could go off wonderfully as a multiplayer game, sorta like a strategy nonteam version of FreeAllegiance. So get the unit AI, and the rest of the game fleshed out first. All RTSes only really shine in multiplayer mode, because AI is just that. AI.
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chaosavy

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Re: Request for feedback on my indie 3D space sim/rts
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2011, 02:31:42 pm »

thanks for the feedback to the both of you.

What's interesting (to me) is how much I shifted directions since I this project became public. I wasn't expecting to make tutorials at this stage, but now I see it as a necessity. The goal of a public release was to get comments/suggestions, but when the player doesn't know how to play the game the obstacle may be too much in most cases. Now the player has to invest time to learn to play the game before knowing/thinking/feeling if it is any good to play it in the first place.

I think that instead of putting in instant action mode (which would be an ideal platform for balancing and AI work)  I'd rather put in more goals for the player and game play options (like that command warship I always talk about). Speaking of the AI it needs some improvement in the short term, mainly collision avoidance and response (mainly on the response side), the ships can get stuck on eachother which is just a huge glaring flaw.
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puke

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Re: Request for feedback on my indie 3D space sim/rts
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2011, 02:11:53 am »

wow, i'm really bummed that you were considering an X style economy and then dropped it.  I'd love to see a game with dynamic economic based politics but with a better strategic control system -- yet simpler than grand empire simulators or traditional 4x games.  I've been playing resource gathering RTS games since Dune 2, and even homeworld follows the same formula.  its become a bit old-hat.

oh well.  funny the comments about ship asymmetry.  the X guys had the same complaints about one of the ship models in their first game, and fixed it for their second.
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Ikaruga

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Re: Request for feedback on my indie 3D space sim/rts
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2011, 03:58:51 am »

I can't wait to try this game tonight !  :D

I loved the Homeworld series and this game seems to be quite close to it.
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chaosavy

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Re: Request for feedback on my indie 3D space sim/rts
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2011, 01:17:51 pm »

puke: once this thing is more complete and/or mostly done what will happen is that I'll end up with an engine that could do a shoot em up action game, a pure rts (heck I could put in a terrain and path finding and it would be ground based rts), or a pure space trader/combat game like Privateer/Freelancer/X series by removing parts so potentially years down the line future games may be like what you describe. Right now I have to tighten the focus for what's possible for a one man operation in a realistic time frame (eg: one year from now). If/after some success happens I could potentially get a team together (or money to pay for 2d/3d art, music etc) and work off existing tech with an established base and get other types of games going.

Ikaruga: if while playing Homeworld you ever thought I'd be cool if you could pilot those ships yourself for a bit and still issue commands then you'll like it (or like it once it gets more polish etc).  Let me know what you think (even if it is negative)
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chaosavy

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Re: Request for feedback on my indie 3D space sim/rts
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2011, 08:39:04 pm »

(this also appears as modified first post)
Hey guys it has been a few months since the first post. Got some great feedback from you guys and hoping for a repeat.


Lots of changes, new features, bug fixes, new art, new website: http://www.VoidDestroyer.com

Most notable:
Project has a name: Void Destroyer
Command ship (upgradable warship where the player's "Avatar" commands the battle) - upgrade it with offensive and defensive abilities
Base capturing - you can now capture enemy bases to expand your empire and weaken your enemies.
RTS elements: enemy bases build stations (for ship production and defense) and ships for offense and defense.
Contract artist art
Shaders added
Bare Bones mode - textureless and shaderless for non-Nvidia or ATI systems.


With the more game like elements (base capture) I need more and more feedback from other eyes than mine. I'm hoping that I can gain insight on how players see this project, is it fun? Is it interesting? Is there obvious flaws? Especially as it relates to capturing bases. It takes me about 30 minutes, am wondering how long it takes a new player.

Again I'd appreciate it if you guys gave it a shot and let me know. It is still a free download on the main site: http://www.VoidDestroyer.com


Here's my favorite of the recent screen shots:



Click for full size -> http://www.voiddestroyer.com/screenshots/iter7-1.png

Here's a recent video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHp1UATkwiM


Summary: download and play the game :)

thanks!
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SeaBee

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Re: Request for feedback on my indie 3D space sim/rts
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2011, 10:39:31 pm »

I'll check it out. I love space games and simulators in general. Might be a few days before I can give it a serious playthrough, but I'll let you know how it goes when I get a chance.
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