Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Quietust]

links to proof?

raw/objects/entity_default.txt

[Supercharazad]

links to proof?

Read the RAWs. Failure, anon_outlaw, failure.

[IT 000]

ninja'd

[Neonivek]

" no, total no, one of the safest machines built up to that time"

Goodness how were the others more dangerous? If you misstepped you were dead depending on the work.

[Misterstone]

I've wanted this in the game for a long time.  I especially think that draft animals shuold be used for power, however I think that the dev would need to implement animal care more fully (esp. feeding, watering, etc.) before it becomes possible.  Also I'd like to see:

1)  undead slaves on the treadmill/wheel!

2)  Using the wheel trains strength, etc.  Just like the Wheel of Pain.  That way, when the goblin prisoners escape they will be badasses like Conan (the movie version) read to slaughter everyone they come across.

[sockless]

If dwarves have no qualms with killing elves in cold blood, then they shouldn't have a problem with slavery. But they should only be able to enslave invaders, which would be especially relevant with the army arc.

[Starver]

If dwarves have no qualms with killing elves in cold blood, then they shouldn't have a problem with slavery. But they should only be able to enslave invaders, which would be especially relevant with the army arc.

The bar against slavery could be "would not force to work in captivity an otherwise worthy being".  They obviously do not have problems with getting livestock to pull carts (although there's no sign that anybody does that at the moment) so if they consider goblins and kobolds (and elves? and humans?) as 'lesser' beings, which would probably be covered by an additional racial attribute, then they wouldn't have any problem putting one of them in/on a treadmill any more than a beast of burden.

As an extension of that, goblins and kobolds could have war carts drawn by captives or (if I'm right in thinking they don't have a bar against captivity, I'm not looking at the raws first to make sure) even their own/their equals.


But then there's also non-slavery subservience, e.g. a term of punishment (for offenders), indentured servants (darn tooting near slavery, but of limited term so probably Ok) and various other forms of employment-like contract to "do as asked".

[NW_Kohaku]

If dwarves have no qualms with killing elves in cold blood, then they shouldn't have a problem with slavery. But they should only be able to enslave invaders, which would be especially relevant with the army arc.

You're forgetting that dwarves actually get along with elves quite well in most cases. 

[ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL:ONLY_IF_SANCTIONED]

Also, while I'm at it,

[ETHIC:TORTURE_AS_EXAMPLE:UNTHINKABLE]
[ETHIC:TORTURE_ANIMALS:UNTHINKABLE]
[ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAPIENT:SHUN]

And of course, females don't have beard in vanilla.

Just because players have, for a long time, taken advantage of the fact that the game is incapable of making any sort of moral judgement of your actions, and is powerful enough to let you perform absolute atrocities doesn't mean that dwarves wholeheartedly approve of what you are doing if they knew what you were doing.  To them, "Unfortunate Accidents" really are accidents, and they are more terrified by the death of a noble than they are of any other sort of dwarf, based upon nobody wanting to migrate to fortresses for a year or so after killing a baron consort.

It's a problem with this community that the community jokes have been retold for so long that people have started to forget that they are jokes, and that it doesn't actually represent Toady's vision of the game.

[Starver]

It's a problem with this community that the community jokes have been retold for so long that people have started to forget that they are jokes, and that it doesn't actually represent Toady's vision of the game.

You're right.  That attitude needs fixing.

With !!magma!!

[dwarf_sadist]

If Toady made the prison system a little more in depth than "capture things with cage traps and then...kill them later", there would be no problem. Make it so you can make peace with the prisoners, give them amnesty, release them without them turning around and attacking a hammerlord unarmed or something along those lines.

If my dwarfs feed, clothe, heal and otherwise protect the prisoners, I see no reason why any elf/goblin would turn down a little work in a chain gain to compensate me for my trouble. While we're on the topic of slaves, sweat shops anyone?

[ThreeToe]

I just had to delete a bunch of off-topic, insulting comments.  Please be nice to each other.

[Dynastia]

Forcing prisoners to work doesn't necessarily mean "slavery" (which dorfs are inherently opposed to). It could be considered a prison sentence (with hard labour), which I doubt they'd have a problem with. Chained to a treadmill is the safest and most obvious outlet, but there could be others.

Although you'd be better off just using an ox, unless you need a huge workforce for a truly epic 50 z-level magmapumpstack.

[sockless]

There is a difference between slavery and penal labour.

Slavery is when you go and get innocent people who have done nothing wrong and then get them to work. Penal labour is when you get wrongdoers or POWs and get them to do work.

If you then sell those prisoners, it does become slavery.

[Dynastia]

Not exactly... slavery was often used as a punishment in ancient times, and the slaves were not necessarily sold (they might be captured as POW's and kept as public slaves of the state, for instance). Slavery could even be used as a method of social climbing, where people of the low classes would 'sell themselves' into slavery for a certain amount of years, expecting to have a better social standing when they're done. Also, if you look at the convict colonies in Australia and very early America (and probably elsewhere in the world), the convicts could be leased out to farms and colonists ; essentially purchased, if they had life sentences.

I think the major difference in definition is that the children of slaves become slaves, while the children of penal labourers are born free.

[Starver]

Not exactly... slavery was often used as a punishment in ancient times, and the slaves were not necessarily sold (they might be captured as POW's and kept as public slaves of the state, for instance). Slavery could even be used as a method of social climbing, where people of the low classes would 'sell themselves' into slavery for a certain amount of years, expecting to have a better social standing when they're done. Also, if you look at the convict colonies in Australia and very early America (and probably elsewhere in the world), the convicts could be leased out to farms and colonists ; essentially purchased, if they had life sentences.

I think the major difference in definition is that the children of slaves become slaves, while the children of penal labourers are born free.

The "sold themselves for limited time" lot were commonly called Indentured Servants, and often included clauses to prevent them getting married, if their 'owner' and themselves agreed such terms beforehand, but apart from formal restrictions on marriage would not normally automatically include any offspring, although they would be seen as distractions which is why the marriage (and/or 'relationship') clauses were common.  Although given they were often concerning a period of service of more than a decade,
you can imagine how many binds that would put the heretofore unromantic indentured individuals when they found themselves falling for someone else while still held in service.

And at various points in history an Apprenticeship was very similar (including restrictions on marriage!), except that the craftsman was usually paid to take the apprentice, but it still amounted to something that semantically was very similar to 'slavery' in the Indentured manner.  (I'm not saying that Apprenticeships == Slavery, I'm actually more saying that Indenturement != Slavery and the overlaps that do occur with it also can occur with Apprenticeships.)

But we're definitely off the topic of Treadmills.  Not that I can see there being too much to say about those, that hasn't already (at least once).