Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Vector]

Yeah, you're probably right.  I've been trying to scale it back to sensible levels, but it seems that I haven't quite gotten there yet.

My apologies to anyone who was offended.  I still believe in the sentiment behind my words, but I more than likely expressed it far too strongly.

[MaximumZero]

I have a feeling, Vector, that you did less offending than Domenique. See, he failed to realize that just because he's part of one culture "in the real world", he's also a part of B12's culture, just by having an account. All of us, including yourself, tend to be kinder to those who play by our socio-internet norms. We are a collective of people, just as any other, and we have certain standards of behavior. This just happened to be a misstep on his part, he defended it instead of apologizing, and got jumped on. That's what happens in the real world, too (although the semi-anonymity helps bolster fortitude to stand up for oneself and one's beliefs.)

Oh, and on topic, not all cosmetic change is good, or easily reverted. I would be very happy about fifty pounds lighter.

[Il Palazzo]

This just happened to be a misstep on his part, he defended it instead of apologizing, and got jumped on. That's what happens in the real world, too.

That's kind of what I was refering to. People only defend themselves, if they feel they're being attacked. Simply saying something like "bad taste dude, drop it" would be enough, and probably have a better effect too.
You want to change somebody's behaviour, you should take care not to antagonize him/her.

[Vector]

I have to say that I disagree with you somewhat, though I do believe one should only use the amount of force necessary.

I feel like my first post was pretty darned mild and jokey.  Maybe it wasn't by some people's standards, but I tried to outline, very specifically, why I was saying anything at all--and in a humorous fashion.  I may have completely failed, but I do feel that these sorts of explanations are necessary precisely so that people will understand why it's not just you responding poorly to their "joke."

And frankly, I have a really hard time just letting this stuff pass me by nowadays with a "bad taste, man."  More power to you if you can say only that and change the world.

[Il Palazzo]

Yes, I have no shame, I'm hijacking this thread.

Do you find your aproach to be having much of an effect on people you take issue with? Do they come back to you after a while, telling you that they were wrong, and your dissection of their faux-pas helped them understand what they did wrong? Maybe they suck it up and mend their ways quietly, mellowing out with a stoic open-mindedness?
Perhaps they do, I don't know what your experiences are. From my point of view, while sitting in this gender-stereotypes-ridden country of mine, this only makes the, offenders let's call them, feeling wronged, because they don't like to be told that they weren't right, that they let themselves say something stupid, thoughtless. They'll just start avoiding you, and any future confrontation, while zealously repeating the same 'jokes' and stereotypes as before, only behind your back, perhaps adding that they hate feminazis who just can't take a joke or some such nonsense.
Now, this is problematic, because people will listen to it, and will have their own misconceptions reinforced, and next time somebody is going to take an issue with the attitude in their presence, he or she runs a high risk of not being taken seriously, and simply ridiculed for speaking up.
I do believe that letting the offender know that he's overstepped the boundaries of good manners, without analysing and pinpointing each and every falsehood in their statement, is enough to let them feel the fear of losing popularity in a community they're interacting with, prompting them to try and fit in better, without triggering the defence mechanisms, which a direct critique is bound to do(unless it's some very open-minded person, but how many of those are there?).
I'm not saying that it's the perfect approach, or that it has a perfect, or even very high success rate. What I'm saying, is that the probablility of convincing a person to change their attitude is still much higher than when you outright antagonize them.

This might of course be just an academic talk, and I might be embittered and a hypocrite, and I might be overreacting myself. At least you know where I was coming from with that one.

edit: I really need to learn how to enable a spellchecker

[Vector]

Remember the first thread I blew up in, and how basically no one came by to help?  Remember how I shouted at everyone who wouldn't listen to me and said that I expected better, even my friends?  Remember the first couple of times that I got angry about education, and how it passed by as a "Well, you can't do anything about it" problem?

Do you remember the next few confrontations, when I suddenly began to have supporters?  I do.  Do you remember when I said I was going to post here less, and people said I'd made it a nicer place--that they wanted me around to keep reminding them to do just that much better?  I definitely remember that, because it was only a day or two ago.

And, perhaps more importantly, I no longer feel downright unsafe here.

Oh, and by the way--that rhetoric course of mine?  My professor keeps telling me, somewhat confusedly, that it's one of the most active and engaged groups she's ever taught.  The class has welcomed me--yes, this, despite chewing them out and dressing them down about three times in a couple of days.  Virulently.  They haven't only welcomed my attempts at improvement, but nowadays they're really listening.  They do more and more.  They have higher and higher expectations for themselves.  They're different, now.

Everyone that I have ever just "let go" proceeded to participate in harmful stereotypes, as you suggested.  At least I've had a chance at changing those who I "antagonized."

[Mindmaker]

You almost make it sound as if there hadn't been any good people around here before you came along 

[Siquo]

You almost make it sound like everyone is defensive here (that's to all previous three posters, and the instigator).

[woose1]

You almost make it sound like this thread is derailing and will likely suffer a major accident, no doubt killing hundreds of innocent people.

...what?

[ChairmanPoo]

Topic change in a thread about change is a testimony to the great powers of Tzeentch

[Vector]

You almost make it sound as if there hadn't been any good people around here before you came along 

I apologize for any offensive tone.  I literally pounded that message out seconds before running out the door.

The question was "have your actions had any effect," not "have the actions of others had any effect."  I feel that my actions have had a significant effect, which I am arguing.  If you would like to argue that they have not, or that it was a group action that my attempts had nothing to do with, feel free.  I won't jump on you.  Obviously, I could not have changed anything in an atmosphere that was completely unreceptive to change.

Honestly, though, I feel like I really put myself out on a limb with some of the things I say here, so I feel a rather strong desire to take credit for any positive results--since I feel that I'll be forced to eat crow if I slip.


I would have added, had I had time, that I used to share those sexist viewpoints myself (along with racism and homophobia, but that's not what this topic is about).  If you can think of it, I probably believed it.  All of it.  I refused to read anything written by women, since I thought it would be inferior by its very nature.  That changed slowly, partially due to a French course where the works were nearly all written by women, which I felt obligated to read and was surprised to enjoy.  Then I got chewed out extensively by some people on the internet and in real life, which changed a lot of how I saw things.  And yes, I did thank them, and yes, I'm still very embarrassed about it.

My views on all of this have changed a great deal in the past year.  I have compassion for those who disagree with me, because I was one of those people once.  At the same time, one of the reasons why I get so angry is because I know that I just didn't get it whenever I was politely reprimanded.  I could just go on my way and remind myself not to say X or Y around Z person.  I never changed the way I thought.  I kept thinking, about myself and other people, "We can't do this because we just aren't as valuable.  Men are the important ones.  They're the smart ones who can think logically--not me."  I believed every single piece of bullshit rhetoric that ever came from any institution.  Everything pro-male, that is.

These things come up, and I fight it because I know what I did, so casually, to other people, without even noticing.  I have been cruel.  Knowing that, I would like to help other people toss away these foolish notions.  I keep on thinking: "Please, let there be no more of this."

You almost make it sound like everyone is defensive here (that's to all previous three posters, and the instigator).

Sorry... ?

[Mindmaker]

I think I can understand you, to a degree.
It hasn't been exactly sexism I've been dealing with, but racism.

Being a son of immigrants raised in a foreign country, can be difficult at times.
I had to deal with racism, up until adulthood.
At first I felt inferior, later I started to look for points I could make to establish superiority, but in the end I became oblivious to nationality.

I really can't tell how much of inpact you had on this community, as I've missed all your earlier "outbursts" as well as the related threads, since I've been to busy frequenting the upper forums or been simply too depressed to care.
You seem however (and I hope you take no offense to that expression) to have become the LA-modesty-police (seriously, how do you manage to sniff out all that posts?).
Well, it seems to work... at least there are no repeat offenders.

[Il Palazzo]

You almost make it sound like this thread is derailing and will likely suffer a major accident, no doubt killing hundreds of innocent people.

...what?

No accidents in sight. It's a peaceful argument between long time aquaintances, or so I'd like to believe.
And it's not such a great derail: we're discussing the best way to change people's attitudes.

Re: Vector.
Well, I'm kind of crushed under the weight of your testimony. Perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps aggressive confrontational stance is a better way of convincing people to join the club than just indirectly threatening not to play with them anymore?

I don't know. I'm not sure if it'd work for everyone. And I'm not sure if all or any of the few people you've berated will ever become your supporters in the quest to open peoples' minds.
Still, that may be a better, more successful way, in the long run. It's my hunch against your hunch, and this, I think, makes the whole argument void.

[Ottofar]

My hair's quite long but it grows outwards rather than down.  I guess I should probably cut it soon.

Better idea would be to let it grow, or ponytail-ize it.
That's just my opinion though.

[Domenique]

It's not hard for me to apologize. Here:

I am sincerely sorry for these unacceptable words that humiliate women.

P.S. This has gone way too far, I mean a few pages of off-topic on me saying an inappropriate slang. While I am sincerely sorry, this is way too much.